James Potter’s Invisibility Cloak, Take Two

I’m sorry if this is a terribly stupid question, but would someone point out to me how we know that Snape started teaching at Hogwarts before the Potters’ deaths?

Not possible. Snape started working at hogwarts after the death of the Potters. It says in HBP that Snape heard what had happened to the Potters and then went to Dumbledore because he felt so guilty that he had caused their deaths. So that’s when Snape changed sides.

Quick responses, I’m at work -

polymorphously - nice dramatic twist. I like it!

mary, actually, no - Snape must have repented long before the Potters’ deaths…otherwise there would have been no time for him to “turn spy” against Voldemort. Voldemort would have been dead before his repentance.

The prophecy was made in 1980. Harry was born later in 1980. Voldemort interpreted the prophecy as being about Harry in 1980 (or early ‘81?). When Snape heard how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy, he repented and turned spy.

meep, good point about James’ suspicion, but it might also be moot if Voldemort showed up while/just after Snape was warning them.

Mary–

At the beginning of the OP school year, Snape told Umbridge he had been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 years and Trelawney said she’d been there for nearly 16 years, which means Snape started in September 1981 and Trelawney started in January 1980. Dumbledore said in HBP that Snape returned when he realized how Voldemort had interpreted the prophesy. And in Karkaroff’s trial memory in GF, Dumbledore said Snape had returned before Voldemort’s downfall, so Snape did not return because the Potters died–he was back before that time.

Travis–

FYI–Someone left a comment on my LJ saying Wormtail may have transformed into a rat at GH to stay out of sight, which makes sense.

A like the way you arranged the evidence in your theory and you made some good points, but I do have a few problems with it:

I’m wondering why Snape didn’t send a patronus to Dumbledore at Hogwarts as soon as he knew what was going to happen. They don’t move at the speed of light, but Snape had to Apparate to the gates of the school grounds and then run to find Dumbledore, so I do think a patronus might have been faster. And if Snape knew how little time they had, that’s what he would have done just to cover his bases.

I’m not with you as far as Dumbledore needing to send Snape to James with the IC to warn the Potters. 12GP was protected by a Fidelius Charm, but at the end of OP when Snape thought Harry had gone to the DoM, Sirius, Moody, Tonks, Shacklebolt, etc., were all able to send and receive messages via patronus from 12GP to Snape, so there is no reason why Dumbledore couldn’t send a patronus to James and Lily. Even better, since Snape returned to Hogwarts to tell Dumbledore the Potters were going to be attacked soon, Dumbledore could have sent Fawkes with a message since Fawkes is able to Apparate from inside the school and deliver a message just as he delivered messages on the night Arthur was attacked. Either Dumbledore’s patronus or Fawkes would have been better choices than Snape (given the history between James and Snape) and probably faster (given that Snape had to run through the Hogwarts grounds twice).

And if James gave the IC to Dumbledore to use as Dumbledore saw fit for the general good of the “cause,” I have to wonder why Dumbledore just had it in his office (unless he just got it) instead of putting it at the disposal of Order members who were doing dangerous work in the field. If IC’s were needed, it doesn’t hit me right that Dumbledore would be holding it in his office for “special circumstances” when it could have been in use by an Order member.

I’m also resisting the idea that Voldemort wanted Snape to have the Potters’ location in case something went wrong. If Voldemort doubted his own ability to handle James and Lily, I think he would have brought a group of seasoned DE’s with him, not placed a 21 year old on stand-by with directions to the house. Because if something went wrong, what would Snape do after the fact? If something went wrong, how was Voldemort going to contact Snape to summon him? And since Wormtail was going to be there (probably disguised as a rat), Wormtail could send for help if something went awry and as the Potters’ Secret Keeper, could give the address to the DE’s who responded.

I liked the idea that Arabella the squib was there but was unable to do anything other than send a message to Dumbledore. But people who have read my theory on LJ pretty much hate the idea (the way most people hate the idea of Nagini as Horcrux), so it’s not a winner. And now that I’m trying to work out the 24 hours, it doesn’t make sense that Hagrid didn’t mention Arabella. Once she saw Hagrid at the site, she would have gone up to him. More importantly, Hagrid’s orders from Dumbledore were to get Harry and take him to Little Whinging, so Dumbledore knew Harry had survived, and if Arabella had known Harry was alive, she wouldn’t have left him in the ruins all alone. That’s a major problem, and I don’t see how it can be overcome.

Felicity, good insights. A few quick replies:

I saw the comment about Pettigrew transforming. Very good point.

As far as Patronuses (Patroni?) or Fawkes finding the Potters, it only makes sense if Dumbledore knows where they are. All the people able to communicate to 12GP already knew the location.

Good point about the time it would take Snape to apparate. I was planning to add a couple alternative explanations in the post, but forgot. Here they are:

1) Snape had to return to Hogwarts, because he needed to let Voldemort see him leave for Hogwarts. And if Voldemort had other spies at Hogwarts, which is altogether possible, the story that he was there would have to be corroborated.

2) Perhaps a better explanation, and one that solves the “cloak hanging out in the office not being used” dilemma is that Dumbledore gave the cloak to Snape for spy use. Snape did send a Patronus, and Dumbledore told him to take the cloak and go to the Potters.’

Another possible explanation for the IC issue is that, in reality, Dumbledore only had it a week…he may not have been keeping it there “just in case” a special circumstance arose, but perhaps he simply hadn’t chosen what its best use would be just then. Since they’re rare, he’d have wanted to “use it well.”

As far as Voldemort wanting Snape to know the location “in case something went wrong,” that’s not what I was trying to say. He needed to know the location in case Dumbledore, in his “omniscience,” somehow found out the Potters were in danger that night. Voldemort might even think DD knows their location, and he’s probably quite certain Dumbledore is doing everything in his power to protect them.

If Dumbledore was seen suddenly leaving the feast, Snape would need to know where Voldemort was in order to warn him. Snape’s entire job was to keep Dumbledore out of the picture.

If Dumbledore got there first, he would have taken Harry out of the rubble and waited there for Hagrid. But Dumbledore leave the baby in the ruins, vulnerable, until Hagrid showed up? No.

Dumbledore getting there first is the weakest part of the argument, yet it’s equally as odd to me (as you pointed out) that Dumbledore or someone else (McGonagall, you mentioned), who could definitely get there faster than Hagrid, would have sent Hagrid and not gone himself.

Hagrid would have to be coming at a distance. His arrival would be detectable. It’s possible Dumbledore showed up, began invoking the ancient magic, waited until he saw Hagrid coming in the distance, and then apparated to Little Whinging (or wherever else he needed to go next). This seems more likely than “Dumbledore left him there until Hagrid showed up.”

I don’t agree that Dumbledore would have to know the Potters’ location to send a patronus or Fawkes to them. At the beginning of OP Harry was at Privet Drive didn’t even know what the OotP was let alone that the HQ was under the FC at 12GP. Ron, Hermione, and Sirius were at 12GP under the FC, and Hedwig was delivering Harry’s letters to them and they were all sending and letters back to Harry. Harry didn’t need to be in on the FC to find them by an ordinary owl, so Fawkes would have been able to find the Potters even though Dumbledore didn’t know their location.

And if an owl can find a person under a FC, I don’t see why the charm would interfere with a patronus for all the reasons Rowling noted in the quote below. Moreover, I think it highly likely that if Dumbledore hadn’t been let in on the Potters’ location, it was because they could still contact each other by Patronus.

As Rowling wrote on her website: “Members of the Order use their Patronuses to communicate with each other. They are the only wizards who know how to use their spirit guardians in this way and they have been taught to do so by Dumbledore (he invented this method of communication). The Patronus is an immensely efficient messenger for several reasons: it is an anti-Dark Arts device, which makes it highly resilient to interference from Dark wizards; it is not hindered by physical barriers; each Patronus is unique and distinctive, so that there is never any doubt which Order member has sent it; nobody else can conjure another person’s Patronus, so there is no danger of false messages being passed between Order members; nothing conspicuous needs to be carried by the Order member to create a Patronus.”

I’m still not convinced by the need for Snape to know the Potters’ location. The Potters were attacked at night (probably late at night), so the feast was over. Voldemort would know better than to tell Snape to trail Dumbledore around for the rest of the night, which might be the very tip-off for Dumbledore to suspect something was up. Voldemort knew Snape had been the eavesdropper who heard the prophesy and had been given a second chance by Dumbledore, so Snape would be the last person at Hogwarts who could be expected to look innocent if caught keeping an eye on Dumbledore.

Voldemort would have known whether Dumbledore had been given the Potters’ location since Wormtail was the Secret Keeper. The argument is that only James, Lily, Sirius, Voldemort, and Wormtail had been given the Potters’ address, so Voldemort knew that Dumbledore couldn’t have gone to the Potters even if he wanted to. I don’t see how it would be possible for Voldemort to not know whether Dumbledore had been given the location. Wormtail would know if he had ever written the location down, and simple test with a faithful DE would tell them all if the written location could be understood by a person it wasn’t meant for.

Even if Hagrid was coming from a distance, if Dumbledore saw him coming, he would have waited a few more minutes out of courtesy. And he wouldn’t have let Hagrid think he was unaware of the condition of the house when Hagrid later described it. That just isn’t Dumbledore. He’s the one who unfailingly observes good manners.

Felicity, excellent points on the issues of communication via patronus charms and Dumbledore’s being there before Hagrid. I’ll have to re-think those two.

On Voldemort telling Snape the Potters’ location - Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore. Voldemort makes bad decisions when he’s afraid (as evidenced by the graveyard in GoF). And Voldemort knows darn well that Dumbledore is capable of discovering information he shouldn’t have any way of knowing (recall the reference to his being “omniscient as ever” in HBP). So Voldemort has got to fear that the night he’ll destroy his prophesied vanquisher, Dumbledore might try to get in the way, especially since he knows Dumbledore heard the contents of the prophecy (and probably believes Dumbledore takes the prophecy as seriously as he, Voldemort, does). Hence, Voldemort believes that the protection of Harry would be priority #1 for Dumbledore. So I can’t buy the idea that Voldemort would not have done something that night just to be certain Dumbledore didn’t interfere, ’cause there’s no way he believes that just because Wormtail didn’t tell Dumbledore, that Dumbledore doesn’t know.

That’s why telling Snape, his spy, to keep an eye on Dumbledore that night makes the most sense in my mind.

Just thought of something else. Maybe Wormtail set Sirius up so that if Sirius was expected to check on Wormtail at 11:00 PM but found him missing, Sirius would Apparate immediately to the Potters’ place where Wormtail, in hiding, would AK him on the spot so that it would look as if the Potters and their Secret Keeper had all been killed by Voldemort.

Daryl–

1. Why was it, that even though DD must have known about the Potter incident the night of LV’s visit, that it took and entire day to collect Harry and bring him to Little Whinging? Hagrid makes it that they flew straight there, without any stops.

Well, the million dollar questions are when did Dumbledore find out, how much was he told, and who told him? It is not clear from the text that Dumbledore found out about the attack just after it happened. He may have found out on October 31 within minutes of the attack or in the wee hours of November 1 or around daybreak on November 1. But as you or someone else said, Vernon Dursley was seeing celebrating wizards on the streets as he drove to work at 8:30 AM on Tuesday. Hagrid said Sirius showed up at Godric’s Hollow only a few minutes after Hagrid, and Hagrid thought he might have just heard the news of Voldemort’s defeat and come around for a look, so rumors were flying before Hadrid left for Godric’s Hollow.

2. Who else knew of the location of the Potters? DD sent orders to Hagrid to where their lived, so HE must have known. Sirius also knew, because he went straight there when he didn’t find Pettigrew at his home.

I thought Dumbledore must have known the Potters’ location, but I’m having serious doubts about that. For one thing, Harry plans to go there in book 7, and he won’t be able to find out from Wormtail what the address is, so the destruction of the house must have broken the Fidelius Charm. When Hagrid was talking in PA10, he said when Sirius showed up at Godric’s Hollow, Hagrid hadn’t thought to ask Sirius what he was doing there. Hagrid also said he personally hadn’t know then that Sirius was the Secret Keeper but that Dumbledore had. So prior to the attack, Hagrid had not been told where the Potters’ were living, but he went to and found the house on Dumbledore’s orders, which means the Fidelius Charm was broken when the house was destroyed. Sirius had to be told where the Potters were because he wanted everyone to think he was the Secret Keeper; he couldn’t have maintained the bluff unless he had been told. So it appears that James, Lily, Sirius, Wormtail, and Voldemort were the only people we are sure had been told where the Potters were hiding. After the attack that destroyed the house, anyone would have been able to see the ruins. I now think it’s analogous to the blocking spell the DE’s used on the Tower stairway at the end of HBP; when a spell caused the ceiling to cave in at the bottom of the stairway, the spell broke with it.

3. Why didn’t Sirius apparate there? Why did he take what must have been precious minutes/hours to go there on motorcycle when he believed that they were in danger?

Good question.

4. Where WAS DD on that night? McGonagill had not got the opportunity to speak to him before they met a Privet Drive. Even if he WAS at school looking up information/preparing the spell for the protection of Harry’s new home, why didn’t McGonagill simply wait until he came out of his office to talk to him? Obviously, he was not there, or else he would have done so.

I don’t think we can say whether he was there. McGonagall is respectful of Dumbledore’s privacy and she certainly heard the rumors from Hagrid or someone else, so she wouldn’t have interrupted him if Hagrid told her Dumbledore had asked not to be disturbed. Maybe Dumbledore was looking up the spell to place on Harry’s blood relatives so that he could get it up and running as soon as possible. So rather than disturb him, McGonagall went to the place Hagrid said Dumbledore would be going to that day.

5. If DD knew of the location, (as he must have to be able to send Hagrid to the location,) who told him? Sirius said that he persuaded the Potters to use Pettigrew as the Secret Keeper INSTEAD of him, meaning that Pettigrew would be the only person who could have informed DD about the location, meaning that he knew that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper ALL ALONG.

See answer to #2. Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper of the Order’s HQ at 12 Grimmauld Place, but Harry learned the location because Dumbledore wrote it down for Harry and gave the parchment to Moody. Harry read it and was able to see 12 GP, so it’s not as if you can only learn the location by hearing the Secret Keeper say it out loud.

6. Why did it take two years for the Potters to hide under the Fidelius Charm if DD knew from almost two years before that LV would be hunting them down? As a matter of fact, that night when Snape overheard the prophecy, why did he just let him leave? Why didn’t he erase his memory, or even just implant a new, different one?

I think Dumbledore had been told by Snape that Voldemort had decided, shortly after Harry and Neville were born, that the prophesy referred to Harry. The Potters were already in hiding by the time of Harry’s christening according to Rowling. I’ve wondered if one of the reasons Voldemort recruited Wormtail a year before he attacked the Potters was to find out if Harry was showing any signs of special powers or precocious magical ability. It could also be that Voldemort waited more than a year after Harry’s birth because he wanted people to think he wasn’t going to act on the prophesy so that they would start getting slack and careless. I think Snape told Dumbledore in October 1981 that Voldemort had started talking about attacking the Potters, which is why Dumbledore urged them to go under the Fidelius Charm.

As for Dumbledore not erasing Snape’s memory after he had been caught eavesdropping on the prophesy, I think there were several reasons. Snape was not a known Death Eater at the time he was caught outside Trelawney’s door. Snape was only a few years out of school when he was caught and he and Dumbledore had a history because of Sirius’s attempt to trap him in the Shrieking Shack with werewolf Lupin during their sixth year; Dumbledore forbade Snape from revealing to anyone that Lupin was a werewolf, and we know Snape never said anything because Lupin graduated with the others. If Snape had spilled the beans, parents would have been demanding that Dumbledore expel Lupin because their children were in danger with a werewolf in the school. So Snape had kept an important secret even though he must have wanted very badly to punish the marauders by getting Lupin expelled. After all, James continued to torment Snape all through their seventh year, and Lupin was James’s close friend. And finally because as Snape told the Black sisters, Dumbledore’s greatest weakness is that he has to see the best in people. Trusting is his default position, so since Snape wasn’t known to be a Death Eater and since Snape had proved himself trustworthy in a difficult matter before, Dumbledore let him go and believed Snape would never repeat what he’d heard, especially to anyone connected with Voldemort.

It just occurred to me that Lily, while running for Harry, shot off a Patronus to Dumbledore that Voldemort had found them. We know a Patronus doesn’t travel at the speed of light, so by the time it got to Dumbledore, James and Lily were dead and Voldemort’s body and powers had been broken. Dumbledore could have sent Fawkes to survey the house, then Dumbledore could have asked him to hoot or flap his wings or something if James, then Lily, then Harry had survived. That’s one fairly simple explanation for how Dumbledore could have known quickly what had happened and that Harry was alive.

It doesn’t explain the IC nor does it explain the 24 hours, but it would have been possible for Dumbledore to know what had happened without being told by a witness.

Jared, good thoughts…you’ll probably get a mention in my podcast this week for that one! Dumbledore has Snape stay at Godric’s Hollow under his invisibility cloak until Hagrid arrives to get him. Love it.

Matt–

In PA chapter 10, Hagrid said he had just gotten Harry out of the ruins when Sirius showed up. They had an argument because Sirius wanted to take Harry, but Hagrid said he had orders from Dumbledore to take Harry to the Dursleys, so Sirius gave Hagrid his motorcycle.

Just re-reading the original post here, again. Travis mentions the possibility of alerting Dumbledore of the attack on the Potters by patronus. I’ve been thinking that, perhaps, Snape is incapable of casting a patronus. He is such a dark, troubled and mean character (although, I believe that he is “Good”) that he would lack the necessary joyful and love-filled experiences to fill the patronus as a dark arts defensive device.

Matt

I think that it wasn’t Snape the one who was under the cloak the night the Potters died, it was Wormtail. Maybe you’ll think that is a stupid theory but i just want to post it anyway. I think it was him because we all know that he betrayed his friends by telling voldemort where they were hidding and maybe Voldemort need to know how to go there with the help of Wormtail. But before this could happen Wormtail in some way persuade James to have the cloak for some reason, and James accepted because he was his friend so Pettigrew had the cloak and that’s why he had it the night Voldemort killed Harry’s parents. Then Pettigrew goes with Dumbledore to tell him that Sirius Black betrayed the Potters and that something terrible happened in Godric’s Hollow (because Dumbledore didn’t knew that Pettigrew was his secret keeper he thought as everyone else that it was Black) so for the hurry of the moment Dumbledore took James’s cloak from Wormtail and he decides to give it to Harry.