11 responses so far ↓

• 1 Jared // Oct 6, 2006 at 1:37 pm

  ‘…this is a case of people grossly underestimating children.’

  The consequence of which is denying our children the very tools of critical thinking and discernment that we try to impart.

• 2 Travis Prinzi // Oct 6, 2006 at 1:47 pm

  Exactly - it’s discernment as how to discern vs. discernment as a list of things to avoid because they might contaminate you.

• 3 Sarah Izhilzha // Oct 6, 2006 at 2:41 pm

  ” I think this is a case of people grossly underestimating children. Again.”

  JKR is my hero. I loved reading fantasy as a kid, and I always knew that me and my friends were better at knowing what was real vs. what was pretend than the grownups thought we were.

• 4 Daryl // Oct 6, 2006 at 8:43 pm

  Well, you see the problem is, that the Bible itself does not promote witchcraft. Personally, I don’t believe that kids who read the HP series are more likely to practice occult, or any of these things, nor do I believe that JKR is a witch, or is trying to indoctrinate the occult into our childen. HOWEVER, its pretty clear in the Bible that witchcraft is WRONG and frowned upon. Again, its not my belief that there is anything that is wrong with the HP series. However, the Bible does not make any seperation between “good” and “bad”, or “black” or “white” magic. Magic is bad, according to the Bible.
  At least that’s MY take. Anyone else want’s to add anything?

• 5 Travis Prinzi // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:31 am

  Daryl, I understand what you’re saying. The problem seems to be with the word “witchcraft.” I’ve written before that the books wouldn’t be half so controversial as they are had Rowling used another word instead of “witchcraft.”

  But opponents need to do some thinking about (a) what witchcraft means and just what is being prohibited in the Bible, and (b) whether or not the magic in HP is the same (which, of course we know, is not).

• 6 Felicity // Oct 7, 2006 at 8:06 pm

  I don’t know about that, Travis.
  Most opponents cite the following passage (although there are many others that condemn sorcery, soothsaying, wizards, witchcraft, enchantments, magic, etc.):

  Deuteronomy 18

  9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God shall give thee, beware lest thou have a mind to imitate the abominations of those nations. 10 Neither let there be found among you any one that shall expiate his son or daughter, making them to pass through the fire: or that consulteth soothsayers, or observeth dreams and omens, neither let there be any wizard, 11 Nor charmer, nor any one that consulteth pythonic spirits, or fortune tellers, or that seeketh the truth from the dead. 12 For the Lord abhorreth all these things, and for these abominations he will destroy them at thy coming.”

  I don’t think a cogent argument could be made that the Bible would permit the kind of magic in the Potter series. At least, from the Catholic point of view, there is no distinction between “good” and “bad” magic, and many Protestants agree. The argument in Catholic circles isn’t between one group claiming HP magic is okay because it’s “not the kind prohibited in the Bible” and another group claiming it’s magic so it is prohibited, but rather between people who worry that the HP books make magic look so attractive kids will be tempted to dabble in in forms of the occult and people who see the books as presenting a subtle danger in that regard.

  Making the argument that the magic in the Potter books isn’t prphibited by the Bible might actually weaken the case for the books among people who object to the books on Biblical grounds.

  I her article “Fantasy and the Occult in Children’s Literature (which takes a largely positive view of the Potter books),” Susan Reibel Moore hits on what I believe is one of the key reasons so many Christian parents object to the Potter books who don’t object to Narnia, LOTR, Cinderella, Oz, etc.:

  “In general, the main characters [of fantasy stories] do not possess supernatural powers — though subsidiary characters who help or hinder them often do. If they find that they themselves have such powers during crises, they use them sparingly for the sake of the good.”

  http://www.ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/moore_s.htm

  That is a key respect in which the Potter books are different from other Christian fantasies like those of Narnia and Middle Earth IMO–in the Potter books, magic of many varieties is used for just about everything by just about every character.

• 7 Daryl // Oct 7, 2006 at 9:51 pm

  WOW. Nice one, Felicity.I have to say, you elaborated and put it much more succintly than I could have.
  Of course, I agree with Travis on many points. The THEMES in HP are uplifting and compatible with those of the Chrisitian religion. There are also other socially commendable themese, such as racial (if you could call it that) tolerance, forgiveness for extreme transgressions, etc.
  In MY personal experience, I don’t know even ONE person who has decided to come any closer to witchcraft/Wiccan beliefs because of reading the HP series. HOWEVER, I believe that it is POSSIBLE that some, children especially, now have the belief that SOME witchcraft is acceptable, even commendable. There are occult groups out there that only practice and encourage “good” or “white” magic IN REAL LIFE. I would not want, nor encourage anyone to necessarily endorse these values. However, one must agree that these same practices do run paralell to those in the HP series. On one side, we have the “extremist” Christians (the Dursleys) who do not believe in magic. ON the other we have the occult (the magical realm) who believe in using magic for good, as well as for evil.
  However, as I pointed out, the only BIBLICAL references makes no distinction between “good’ and “bad” magic. I may sound redundant here, but the HP series, in and of itself, does encourage one to believe that magic, used for the right purposes, is ok, while the Bible doesn’t. The Bible doesn’t say that some or ANY witchcraft is acceptable, it makes no distinction between them whatsoever. JKR HAS used similar practices with those of the occult, although these, in my opinion, were gathered mainly from mythology rather than occultism. I can’t really say if it’s right or wrong, but neither can I truly rail against the “extreme” Christians, who do have the letter of the BIble, although not necesarily the spirit, on their side.

• 8 Travis Prinzi // Oct 7, 2006 at 10:49 pm

  I guess that wasn’t the point I was making, but I probably wasn’t clear. My point wasn’t that if we had magic/witchcraft as it is in the real world, AND we had HP magic in the real world, HP magic would be OK. My point was that Rowling’s created a magical world as a literary device, and not only does it not exist, it doesn’t even look like what the Bible’s prohibiting in the first place.

• 9 Deborah // Oct 9, 2006 at 7:33 pm

  I see the point that many are trying to make, but Rowling is right, they are underestimating children. Though there probably will be some kids that may get a bit confused initially, how many of us adults didn’t go through that ourselves to learn hands on that many of the illusions we thought were reality really weren’t what we thought they were, such as marriage and “happily ever after”? Not very many of us, that’s for sure. Should we not allow fairy tales to be told because children might become disenfranchized with the world? No, we allow fairy tales with “happily ever after” endings because we want our children to grow up having hope and to enjoy their childhoods. Bit by bit they will learn about the other intricasies and complications of life as they become ready to deal with it. Why should the Harry Potter series be any different for children?

  Christians believe in miracles, but what really is the difference between miracles and magic in the Bible? It has to do with where their faith and source of powers lie. So to black ball magic intirely can be very confusing to kids. How can a parent say that they believe in miracles but not magic? Aren’t they sisters? This is something that every Christian must learn growing up if one believes in miracles. Additionally they need to know that the powers of the dark one are real too.

  Being told about life lessons by a parent, teacher etc…doesn’t really mean much until one learns to understand this first hand. Otherwise, why would an all wise God create a world where evil can exist? Because he knows that we will best learn these things, sadly, as we experience them. In other words, he allows us to suffer for our greater good. Therefore, I think the HP series provides a good backdrop for parents to talk to their children about this, and better yet, for the kids to ask questions on their own, which they will, when they are ready to learn such concepts.

  As for the seeking of power from cults etc… well if someone is a power seeker, they are a power seeker, and they will find it one way or another. Why should Rowling become responsible for the choices others make unless she is actually teaching them HOW to do these things, or brainwashing others into believing that they must have such powers? I’m not saying that people of her stature and influence shouldn’t be careful, but I am sick of people trying to pass the buck on to someone else to take responsibility for things.

  I would also like to add that if Christians really read the Bible, they will see that it was the law of Moses, or the way God expected his followers to live before Christ’s sacrifice for them (Old Testament) that things had to be dictated to the “T” for men. For example they weren’t allowed to travel more than a certain amount of steps per Sabbath day etc… This was to prepare them for the next step where they were allowed to make certain decisions for themselves, as Christ taught. He broke many of their “rules” to show that there was a higher law by doing such things as healing on the Sabbath, forgiving the adulterous woman etc… This made him very unpopular with the Saducees, who still lived the laws to the “T”. He wanted his followers to progress, like young children, from being told every little thing that they should do, to following him willingly the way that they personally know is what he wants without necessarily always being told to do so. These people who are trying to ban the HP books for Christianity’s sake are trying to baby their children, rather than let them grow up and follow their God willingly on their own. Such children will often loose the faith until they get those needed personal experiences and lessons learned. So, they are not really raising their children to be independent in their judgement, but to be dependant upon others judgements, which is worse in my oppinion, as the vast majority of the world has far worse value systems than the very author they are griping about. (That’s just me though)

• 10 Kelsey // Oct 19, 2006 at 7:30 pm

  This I think is the most talked about topic amongst my father and I. He was really disappointed in me in 2004 and 05 because that was the point at which my whole life was immersed in Harry Potter. I was all out, fan fictions, read them wrote them corrected them, I think I re-read OotP a total of 13 times in that period. I never once thought that magic was real I never once wanted to go and join a cult and practice witchcraft. That book was my reprive.

  Anyway I was sort of off the topic there but people do grossly underestimate the capacity of understanding that children have. That has been and always will be one of my pet peeves.

• 11 shadowquill // Jan 21, 2007 at 12:59 pm

  Three cheers for J.K. Rowling’s wonderful political skills. “Alfie, have you ever wanted to be a witch?” “No.”

  It really IS an issue of adults underestimating the religious stability of children. I’d say all the children I’ve met have stronger faith than many adults. If adults were honest with themselves, they fear that their children have weak faith because they themselves feel weak. It is a terrible assumption. They’ve forgotten what it is like to be a child. I’m starting to as I prepare for college. Harry Potter allows me to connect with my inner child. I find myself returning to Narnia and Harry more often than ever before, like I’m trying to cling to my childhood. It’s an emotionally turbulent time.

  I’m looking forward to what J.K. Rowling might say after the final book is published even more than the final book itself. Will she do a C.S. Lewis and explain some of the symbolism? Or will she decide to allow the world to interpret her works as they wish without any information behind her intentions or inspiration? I’m hoping that her eagerness to share every minor detail about the Wizarding world with us indicates an eagerness to share the deeper meanings later on as well. Either way, I’ll be happy. It would be interesting to see how Ms. Mallory would react if J.K. Rowling openly stated that the books were meant as “edifying Christian literature”. She’d probably be branded as a blasphemer, nonetheless, because of her use of witches to convey Biblical message. (You can’t win with people like Ms. Mallory.)

  I’m sure that whatever J.K. Rowling decides, it will be for the best. Would her publishers be mad if she declared any religious motivation? Naah. They’d be glad of the publicity, probably.

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