Anyway, I offered up the various examples not necessarily because I agree with them but because I think they point out the very complicated nature of what people mean when they say they want the truth & what people who are asked to tell the truth actually say & still consider to be the truth. Anyway again, we’ve had this particular discussion on truth lots of times before, & from what I remember is that we were in agreement about much of it, except we perhaps came at it from different ways.

So, again, I don’t disagree with you that Dumbledore should’ve been much more forthcoming about things to Harry. And I don’t disagree that Skeeter reveals parts of the truth, but not because she’s really after the truth. So, I think it’s a matter of degrees, treating Dumbledore too harshly and giving Skeeter too much credit. But as you say, waiting for Ch. 18 sounds good and appropriate.

Funny, I could have sworn that I said earlier that absolute truth was not a very realistic goal. Yep, I did:

I don’t think, however, that anyone deserves the absolute truth. (see above: Comment #100).

Comment #100? Wow!

Anyways, this is totally a Chapter 18 discussion, so I’m not going to go after the many tempting baits that have swam past me. But they are soooooo tempting, especially the one about the birds and the bees, and the one about the Hallows and red herrings.

I will be patient.

Really, as a post-modern, I’m surprised that you think that Dumbledore could or even should provide one absolute, all encompassing account of the “truth.” If Harry is a proper post-modern, then he’s not going to totally believe anything Dumbledore tells him; he will always have his hermeneutic of suspicion going on. And unless Dumbledore essentially gives Harry a complete account of his life down to the last little detail, something will always be missing , for from a human you’re never going to get “the truth, the whole truth & nothing but the truth.”

Think of another similar situation between a wise old mentor and a headstrong, impetuous young hero. Obi-Wan Kenobi tells Luke that Darth Vader killed his father, Anakin Skywalker. It’s true, as Kenobi admits, from a certain point of view, and he goes on to tell Luke that many things in life depend on one’s point of view. Now, I’ll buy that to a certain extent. I’m certainly not a relativist, although I admit & know that a lot of relativity goes on in the world. But the point being, I don’t think Dumbledore is doing anything different than what Kenobi does.

Again, whether either one should have done something different or shared more information is another matter. Who knows if telling Harry or Luke a whole bunch of information right off the bat would’ve been the good thing to do or whether it would’ve caused more problems. Imagine, if you will, what might’ve happened if when Luke asked Obi-Wan in Episode IV, what happened to my father, Obi-Wan immediately launched into the whole latter history of the Republic, the saga of Anakin Skywalker, and the rise of Darth Vader. Imagine, if when Harry asks questions at the end of HPSS, Dumbledore immediately tells him every single thing he knows.

What parent when their child asks where babies come from, immediately shares everything in the world about baby making, or what general when asked by a soldier what his orders are, immediately starts laying out the whole plan of battle & the whole strategy of the war? I would say Dumbledore’s greatest sin was not in telling Harry all the truth but in underestimating him and also in not being able to overcome his Machiavellian ways. And, and it’s just possible that DD didn’t realize Harry was the better man & could’ve handled more until it was too late & he, DD, was dead.

You’re spot-on about Harry’s father figures. Sirius was also reckless and a bit delusional, too. I think these father figures’ faults helped Harry avoid their pitfalls.

We’ll be extensively discussing the Hallows and their importance later. But I assure you, they weren’t a red herring and were important in giving Harry the strength he needed to walk to his death.

He’s the man with the plan. And he knows that he himself mightn’t pass that test and he can’t conceive of a child choosing to do so either.

If you’re talking about free will why not assume that Albus is exercising his free will by not telling Harry?

He does underestimate Harry, though.

It doesn’t matter because the end justifies the means to an Act Utilitarian.

Utilitarian theories, on the other hand, must answer the charge that ends do not justify the means. The problem arises in these theories because they tend to separate the achieved ends from the action by which these ends were produced. One implication of utilitarianism is that one’s intention in performing an act may include all of its foreseen consequences. The goodness of the intention then reflects the balance of the good and evil of these consequences, with no limits imposed upon it by the nature of the act itself — even if it be, say, the breaking of a promise or the execution of an innocent man. Utilitarianism, in answering this charge, must show either that what is apparently immoral is not really so or that, if it really is so, then closer examination of the consequences will bring this fact to light. Ideal utilitarianism (G.E. Moore and Hastings Rashdall) tries to meet the difficulty by advocating a plurality of ends and including among them the attainment of virtue itself, which, as John Stuart Mill affirmed, “may be felt a good in itself, and desired as such with as great intensity as any other good.”

Albus says -

“Harry must not know, not until the last moment, not until it is necessary, otherwise how could he have the strength to do what must be done?”

Boy! Does he underestimate Harry! Harry has shown more strength throughout this series than anyone – except Severus Snape. And it shows the fatal flaws of Utilitarianism – who is Albus to tell Harry what he should know and when in order to achieve the greater good? Where is the freedom of the will in all of this?

And what happens? Once again – Harry is let down by a father figure who is less than perfect. Harry’s father figures seem to show a lot of imperfections in his life, Sirius was a bully and headstrong to a fault, Lupin abandoned his family willingly, Albus wanted to rule the world (Utilitarianism = Facism) and didn’t tell Harry about it, and Harry’s own father, James, was the sort of person Harry disliked in his own life. The only person who doesn’t let Harry down – the only one who ultimately tells him the absolute truth about everything (including the messy truths of his heart and doesn’t hold back) is Severus Snape. And why did Snape tell Harry about his love for Lily? Because it mattered to Harry.

The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

PS Thanks Revgeorge for the kind words – and dear sweet Charlie, thank you for the Faure Sanctus. I hadn’t listened to that in a long time and you were right – it transports you to a very beautiful place. Thank you.