This chapter opens with an ominous moment: Harry searching for a place to bury Moody’s eye. He does so under “the oldest, most gnarled, and resilient-looking tree he could find.” Harry’s symbolism is clear, and the scene will be repeated later.
All-in-all, this chapter has an Empire Strikes Back feel to it. Our heroes are stuck in the wilderness, hunting for clues to puzzles they know are important, but coming up empty. As Rowling writes it, the scene reduces the three of them to “three teenagers in a tent whose only achievement was not, yet, to be dead.” The dark magic of the locket, now being passed among them to diffuse its effect on any one of them, is taking a severe toll. And it is most assuredly the prime cause of discord within the tent.
Hermione’s realization that this is so does little to assuage the Horcrux’s effect on all of them. Endless boredom and hunger in the midst of the stress of being hunted like animals isn’t helping the situation. It all creates a vicious psychological cycle within the trio, most notably Harry: “[He] was starting to fear that Hermione too was disappointed by his poor leadership. In desperation he tried to think of further Horcrux locations, but the only one that continued to occur to him was Hogwarts, and as neither of the others thought this at all likely, he stopped suggesting it.” In other words, out of fears over his lack of leadership, Harry quits being a leader. Any reader who has paid close attention to the series knows Harry has to be right, or at least on the right track. The importance Hogwarts holds for Voldemort and others is unmistakable. All of them are ignoring the evidence, from Ginny’s possession and Voldy’s other repeated attempts to penetrate the school, to what Harry learned in his Pensieve lessons in Half-Blood Prince.
But, what we do learn very clearly here is that the other Trio (Ginny, Neville, and Luna) are trying to wreak a bit of havoc at the school. More importantly, Harry, Hermione, and Ron learn from their eavesdropping exercise that the true Sword of Gryffindor has gone missing — hidden, perhaps by Dumbledore, to keep it from the hands of those who don’t deserve it. But, the most significant piece of information they learn while listening to Griphook and the others at the riverbank is that the sword can be used as a weapon against Horcruxes. Hermione realizes the sword has absorbed some of the effects of the basilisk’s venom. Harry feels that some answers are “tantalizingly close.” Yet, they’re just out of reach.
And the chapter ends in catastrophe. Ron’s emotional implosion pushes the group over the edge, leading to the Trio’s collapse. He storms out of the tent angry, misanthropic, and believing that Hermione has chosen Harry over him. We’ll learn later the true outcome, but I count this moment as one of Rowling’s most significant red herrings in the series. Upon my first read, I was convinced that this fracture doomed Ron. For a while, I waited nervously to see Harry and Hermione stumble across his body somewhere. Thus, the later moment when Ron rises to his real potential is all the more emphatic and powerful to me.
What makes this book so hard to read is the persistent pounding of death in every corner, upon every page. Chapter 15 opens with a burial, one that will be echoed painfully later. The Horcruxes presense, the pervasive fear and hunger, and final moment when it seems that the central friendship in the series is fully broken all make this one of the darker chapters in the entire HP saga.
Joivre on 
Arabella Figg on 
Red Rocker on 
Tom on 
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Boy – you got that one right Dave! Great post for a dark, dark chapter. A few things strike me about what you wrote. One being the supposed doom you felt concerning Ron. Wow! For some reason – I never thought of that while reading the book the first time through – but now that you point it out…. what an awful feeling. Ron is always the one who gets hurt in the trio and it would make sense that one could think that. Thank goodness that doesn’t happen and I now know the end!
Another – on page 290 – Ms. Rowling gives away every single one of the locations of the horcruxes in one sentence:
Dumbledore had shown Harry that Voldemort sought grandeur or mystique in his hiding places; this dismal gray corner of London was as far removed as you could imagine from Hogwarts or the Ministry or a building like Gringotts, the Wizarding bank, with its golden doors and marble floors.
Also – how can Borgin and Burkes recognize a Horcrux straight away?
The first physical Christian symbol of the cross on the grave of Mad-Eye was actually shocking to me.
Hermione’s because I’m a girl made me shout “You go, Girl!”.
Ok what are the five Principal Exceptions to Gamp’s Law of Elemental Tranfigur -?
“nowhere effing near, in other words.” ooooooh the f-bomb almost dropped from Ron!
Dammit Ron! Why did you leave, you big baby!?
Excellent comments, both Dave and Joivre!
My first thought on Ron’s checking out was “Haven’t we seen this plot device before?” I was disappointed that Rowling recycled the Ron/Harry divide from GOF. Of course, I saw later how necessary it was.
My other thought was, “How could Ron think that Hermione preferred Harry?” It sent me scrambling back thru the other books for hints that Ron could think there was something between H and Hr. They are there, but I completely missed them on first reading.
Joivre — I had never noticed that sentence where JKR points out all the Horcruxes’ (eventual) locations! Lovely…. I wonder if she felt just a wee bit smug when she wrote that!
Treebeard — Of course Ron could think Hermione prefers Harry: Harry is the one who always gets the attention, he’s the Chosen One, he’s the Quidditch Captain, the list goes on and on… We’ve seen Ron’s jealousy of Harry repeatedly across the books, not just in the Ron/Harry divide in GOF… Maybe “jealousy” is too strong a word. But Ron has spent his entire life in the shadow of his flashier, more accomplished brothers (so much so that even his own mother has lowered expectations where Ron is concerned), and he’s spent the last few years in the shadow of his best friend.
So why wouldn’t he assume that Hermione also would be taken with Harry? He’s wrong, of course. (And yes, the hints are there in the books — I wonder if it was these hints regarding Ron’s suspicions or concerns that in part drove the Hermione/Harry shippers to believe what they did… But let’s face it, if sizeable numbers of serious fans could take a Harry/Hermione relationship seriously, why wouldn’t Ron?)
I think Ron has plenty of reasons to believe Hermione might go for Harry… many of those reasons are based in his own low expectations for himself, of course…. And when you throw the Locketcrux into the mix…. well, Voldemort knows how to hit someone right where they live, doesn’t he, hurting right at the most vulnerable spot?
I think this was the part of the book where I felt most that Harry might fail in his quest… because he needs Hermione *and* Ron to succeed…. And ripping that away from him shows that Voldemort knows how to hit right at Harry’s most vulnerable spot as well….
Good write up of a bleak chapter Dave. I’ve always hated this chapter because everything looks so futile. The kids are bored, hungry, irritated, questioning their mission and each other. I am so glad when they stop hanging about in tents. And when Ron rejoins them.
Funny you should say that you thought Ron was doomed when he walked away. Before DH I was convinced that JKR was going to kill Ron because Harry had to lose more friends and he seemed the most likely candidate based on history. And also because I couldn’t bear to lose Hermione while Ron seemed, well, dispensible.
Funny thing about leadership, as well. Harry is fine as long as he doesn’t think about what kind of job he’s doing. It’s only when he starts having doubts that he loses effectiveness. Reminds me a little of the block of flats in the Monty Python skit: the ones which are held up by hypnosis and are fine until someone questions that it’s possible:
Architect: Of course they’re safe. There’s absolutely no doubt about that. They are as strong, solid and as safe as any other building method in this country provided of course people believe in them.
(Cut to a council flat. On the wall there is a picture of Mystico.)
Tenant: Yes, we received a note from the Council saying that if we ceased to believe in this building it would fall down.
Voice Over: You don’t mind living in a figment of another man’s imagination?
Tenant: No, it’s much better than where we used to live.
Voice Over: Where did you used to live?
Tenant: We had an eighteen-roomed villa overlooking Nice.
Voice Over: Really, that sounds much better.
Tenant: Oh yes – yes you’re right.
(Cut to stock shot of block falling down in slow motion. Cut back to tenant and wife inside. Camera shaking and on the tilt.)
Tenant: No, no, no, of course not.
(Cut to stock film again. The building rights itself. Cut back to interior again. Camera slightly on tilt. They are holding bits of crockery etc.)
Tenant: Phew, that was close.
Excellent summary, Dave. Though I think there are several passages in the series that are darker than this. The end of GoF, for instance, or the rapidly approaching scene in the cemetery with what once was Ms. Bagshot. Both of which I found much darker and more disturbing than the angst of this chapter.
Keen insight on Ron, Janet. Dare I even ask if anyone else hears echoes of Luke/Leia/Han right now?
I get the impression that Ron and Harry continually underestimate Hermione. They seem to have, at least subconsciously, the attitude that she’s ‘just a girl’. After which they fall into the maddening pattern of just expecting her to sort everything out.
Thence Harry’s mistake–assuming that his gut-feeling (which he little realizes is at least partly the horcrux in him reaching out to its fellows) about other possible locations must be wrong. So he fails to lead right when everyone’s complaining he’s failing to lead. He resigns himself to his mistake. (Not that I’ve ever done that, or anything.)
It becomes important for Ron to leave, if for no other reason that Harry no longer has the two props of his faithful companions. And he realizes, about same time, that Hermione is not ‘just a girl’, she’s as important a friend as Ron (the bloke) can ever be. But he can’t rely on her–or Ron–or her and Ron–or anyone–to do for him what he needs to do. He has to act for himself.
Your comment came through while I was writing, Red Rocker. Excellent point! And, yes, ‘bleak’ is the right word.
Yes, I too got a strong GoF vibe from Ron leaving. In fact, knowing JKR’s tendency to put key events on Halloween, Christmas, and Easter, I assume that the day this chapter happened was Halloween, which would be the same day as the Harry-Ron estrangement in GoF.
And I think this is the first time we’ve seen goblins since GoF, yes?
Leaving the discussion of Harry et al. for a moment (we never do this, do we?), Joivre , if you google “The Cello Suites & New York Times”, you will be led to a review of a book entitled The Cello Suites – J.S. Bach, Pablo Casals, and the Search for a Baroque Masterpiece .
I will now re-read the chapter to see if I have anything useful to say about it and the excellent summary and comments that have so far been made. (Things were too hectic over the Thanksgiving weekend with the grandchildren here for me to read the book.)
And it urgently asks how Bach’s music can be liberated from stuffiness and kept alive for future generations. At one point Mr. Siblin describes heading for an obscure Bach event when the rest of Montreal was abuzz with the news that U2 was in town. U2 or Bach: which will be remembered 300 years from now?
Looks like a very interesting book (and a very sweet one as well – being written from the true heart of an unitiated-to-serious-music lover). When I came home 4 years ago and first took my job as a music director, I was given free-reign to choose whomever I wanted for our chamber music series. Charlie, I was like a kid in a candy store! My wise Executive Director said she would never overstep my artistic choices and encouraged me to be brave. I took her to her word and chose as my first artist on my series – Matt Haimovitz playing the solo Bach Cello Suites. I knew Matt from my school days. It was still a risk – the suites are serious business and require a sophisticated audience. Would I have one? Or would my first concert be a flop? I knew artistically it would be a coup – but from the money standpoint, I didn’t know.
It was an artistic and financial triumph for me. (Not to mention the for the cellist-god himself!)
Read here how on NPR how Matt Haimovitz has turned on a new generation to Bach. (and by the way – he did Anthem – please listen to it on the site – as an encore and brought down the house!)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1572001
I’ve never doubted myself – or Bach – since.
Back to the chapter – I wonder if Hermione’s tears at the end of the chapter are only for Ron – or is the frustration of a subtle sexism creeping into her heart as well. Hermione has to do a lot. More than her partners here. And when she speaks up at the unfairness of it all – she’s shot down with the old stand-by cop-out – “you have to do it, because you’re better at it than I”.
I remember growing up my brother and I had chores assigned by my Mom. My brother had to mow the lawn and I had to do the dishes. Well – naturally I bucked at this. Why do I have to do the dishes every night of every day and my brother gets to mow the lawn twice a month? The answer was that my brother was stronger and didn’t clean the dishes properly enough. So I took it as I was being punished for doing my job so well and never given the chance to show my strength. I was young. I didn’t know what sexism was. But I knew this was unfair. And thus started a life-long reaction to even the most minute and subtle sexism that would occassionaly show up in my life – I would flush red and silent hot tears of shame and anger would stream down my face.
Opera is the great equalizer. If you’ve got the chops, no matter your color, weight, appearance, religion, or ethnicity – you’re hired. And when you’re playing Tosca in Tosca – you are the big kahuna. So one would dare treat the lead role with any prejudice. You are the equal – the colleague.
Sadly it’s in the mundane things of life that this sickness rears it’s ugly head. And Hermione – so brilliant, so loyal, so loving, and so helpful – is not being treated as the true Diva she is. That frustrates me. And probably her.
Joivre , I listened to Anthem at the cite you gave. The performance was an impressive variation on the National Anthem. Also, the visual effects that accompanied the performance were quite interesting. Thanks for giving us the link.
Whoops – that should be no one would dare treat the lead role with any prejudice.
I’ve been away for the holiday weekend and so much has happened here while I was away! I’m still catching up. Just want to echo everyone else’s comments and say wonderful post Dave!
Mr Pond, I’m not sure I would agree that Harry and Ron underestimate Hermione. I think that they do understand how powerful she is – epxecting her to be able to produce and cook food in this chapter for example. I would say instead that they sometimes (or rather a lot of the time) take her for granted, or don’t fully appreciate her. I would actually argue that Ron is the underestimated character – for all the reasons that Janet describes above. (Maybe I’m jumping the gun here, as this might be a better topic for the Silver Doe chapter…)Ron’s loyalty to Harry reminds me of Hagrid’s to Dumbledore. Although he might leave Harry and Hermione, it does not take him long to realize his mistake, something which Dumbledore likely predicted when he willed Ron the Deluminator.
Joivre, intersting musings on Hermione at the end of the chapter. I’m not sure how sensitive Hermione is to issues of sexism, but I think that her tears could definately be ones of frustration also.
This chapter is an exploration of how each character copes with loss of hope. The enemy they face is not a physical monster, but their own despair and depression. I think this is why this chapter sits uncomfortably with most readers. Although most of us have never faced down an evil and powerful wizard, we have all at some point been faced with faltering self-confidence, or hopelessness in the face of a seemingly insurmountable obstacle.
I’ve always thought that Ron’s comment that “It’s all right for you two, isn’t it, with your parents safely out of the way” shows exactly how illogical he is at this point. Here’s a question: Do you think that Ron would have had the same reaction to the events of the evening if he hadn’t been wearing the Locket at the time? Would he have still chosen to leave Harry and Hermione? I guess what I’m getting at is this: How much of the decision to Disapparate came from Ron, and how much was due to the malevolent influence of the Horcrux?
Mavis–in my humble opinion, I think the horcrux aggravated Ron’s personal misery and worst tendencies. Of course he’s worried sick about his parents, as embroiled as they are in the fight. But the malevolent influence of the horcrux aggravated his worry, so that rather that genuine concern for them, it becomes self-pity of the worst sort–of the sort that would accuse Harry of smugly getting his parents ’safely out of the way’. (!) And perhaps stymie jealousy toward Hermione for being able to do just that. He disapparates because the Horcrux is influencing him to make selfish decisions based on his fears and uncertainties.
Joivre, spot on with Hermione. I think it was just everything all at once–Ron being gone, her best friends getting into a horrible spat, feeling unable to deal with Harry’s expectations of her, and who knows how much repressed frustration at being seen as ‘just the girl’. I’m sorry you had to have experiences like that–it frustrates me, too, just to read it, and I’m a bloke (to reassure that there are blokes who’ve moved beyond the feudal mindset!).
aerisflowers–great comparison between Ron and Hagrid. I never saw that before. I think we’re saying much the same thing about Hermione–they take her services and ability for granted, as much as they respect and rely on them, but underestimate her as a person. A person with emotions and limitations and worries and potential, that maybe she’s just not expressing.
Joivre – brilliant catch on the sentence which states where the remaining horcruxes are. I, too, want more of an explanation on why Harry assumes that Borgin and Burke can recognize a horcrux. We have previously been told of another character that supposedly covets Dark Magic artifacts – Lucius – and he didn’t know that the diary was a horcrux.
Poor Dawlish. Foiled again. That made me laugh.
I find it telling that the goblins/wizards manage to catch salmon and cook it up in away that produces “tantalizing wafts”, whereby Hermione can’t seem to replicate the same result with the pike. Being a serious cook myself, I appreciate JKR knowing that just because you have food and can cook it, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be good. For me, that really drove home the point that these poor kids really were suffering.
Very nice summary, Dave.
Yes Jensenly – that’s right! I forgot about Lucius not recognizing the diary. Does it have a heart-beat like the locket? Seems to me – no one really took the time to examine it closely enough, except Ginny.
Well – since no one is telling me about the 5 principle exceptions to Gamp’s law – I decided to look it up. It seems no one knows what they are!
The Principal Exceptions to Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration are five substances that cannot be created out nothing by magic, although they might still be altered or multiplied. Out of the five exceptions, only food is mentioned explicitly in the series – although speculation amongst fans has proposed many other possibilities. While there are clearly limits to the effects of magic, one cannot truly raise the dead, one cannot actually force someone to love you (only become obsessed with you), etc. – as Gamp’s Law addresses Elemental Transfiguration it deals only with changes to physical substances.
Rowling herself has stated once in interview that money is something wizards cannot simply materialise out of thin air,[5] or the economic system of the Wizarding World would then be gravely flawed and disrupted. While the Philosopher’s Stone does possess the ability to make any metal into gold, this is portrayed as an extremely rare form of magic, and might still be viewed as allowable as merely an alteration of metal.
There are numerous examples in the series of food appearing to have been conjured from nothing in the series, such as the sudden appearance of feasts in the banquet halls of Hogwarts, ingredients into the pots of Molly Weasley’s kitchen, alcoholic beverages during Aragog’s wake, and “Madam Rosemerta’s finest Oak matured mead” apparently conjured by Dumbledore. Another is when Professor McGonagall creates a self- refilling plate of sandwiches for Harry and Ron in book 2. In all cases, these events can be reasonably explained as food either being multiplied – which seems to be allowable under Gamp’s Law – or transported from elsewhere.
So until the Encyclopedia comes out – I’m guessing
1. Food in zero quantity
2. Money
3. Water? Or does that come under food?
4. Items with magical properties (potions, wands, invisibility cloaks, Philosopher’s Stone, etc.)
5. ?!
I’m stumped.
Great write up, Dave! The “three teenagers in a tent…” sentence really struck me too.
It strikes me how Harry is beginning to get things right, only he and others are so used to him being wrong, that they’re discrediting his theories. Harry was right about Malfoy being a Death Eater, and his instincts about Hogwarts being a hiding place are correct.
Hermione’s response to Ron’s comments about food were spot on, and way classier than I likely would have been at that point. I sympathize with Hermione. When I was home from college one summer my mom was away, and my father cannot/will not cook or clean anything and so I had to do the cooking and the laundry. Taking care of one helpless man is bad enough.
Joivre My singing experience has felt different. This should probably be taken elsewhere, but I’ve found that as there are more singers and fewer opportunities as of late, singers are getting judged more on weight and appearance. I’ve noticed all around a big difference in the way I’m received, even in the music world, since I lost a lot of weight over the past year, and of course men have an easier time getting hired because there are fewer men in opera, and less competition. I’m glad I’m a mezzo (for the non singers: female voice that sits lower than a soprano, but not as low as a contralto and can have a sizeable range) not a soprano, so I have at least slightly less competition to deal with.
Hi Diva_Alix, dear friend, (I have special permission from Revgeorge to say anything I want to about music
)I’m sorry to hear of the lack of opportunities in a once very fertile Bay Area. This is the worst of times for musicians – everysingle opera house I know is cutting staff and their season performances. I am so thankful for my job. We’re riding out the storm fairly well where I work. (knock on wood)
I’m sorry to say you are right to a certain degree. Of course, there was the little-black-dress incident in England involving one of the most glorious dramatic spinto sopranos of our age. And certainly – no one has to look further than across a strasse in Europe without beholding the very sexy Anna Netrebko (she was named “sexiest babe in classical music” by Playboy) on a billboard. But – I do believe it all evens out on the side of talent in the end. Netrebko does have a fabulous voice (if not my favorite) and Deborah Voight does look better in a little black dress having lost weight. Regarding men in opera – Ferruccio Furlanetto is the new hot Giovanni for a reason in addition to his glorious bass voce. Talent is talent. And if you sing Charlotte better than anyone – you’ll get the part. However – if one is 250 pounds and wants to sing Cherubino – well there might be a problem there. Renee Fleming is a good and healthy weight, sings great and is gorgeous. But still – to this day the largest fee commanded by, and readily paid to, a musician (and I mean ANY musician, including Yo-Yo Ma and Itzak Perlman) is a big African-American woman from the American South called Jessye Norman. And she’s worth every penny of it. No one can touch her talent – anywhere, anyhow.
Congratulations on your weight loss – I know how tough that is. I stopped surfing for 6 months once due to a sciatic injury and promptly gained 35 pounds. It’s been a year and I’m still trying to get it off. 15 down 20 more to go. I paddle out now – but with the extra 20 and my sciatica, by the time I pop up the ride’s over. *sigh* Man, I sound like an old geezer. No waves for the fat girl!
Thank you Dave for the great post! When you mentioned ‘the second trio’ it startled me with a sudden (not entirely original) thought and I do wonder whether you had more in mind than there just being three people?
I hope the following idea is not too far off topic.
I am pretty sure that JKR loves patterns, so each trio could be argued to include:
one ‘fire’ element / intuition / soul / heart / gryffindor
one ‘earth’ element / sensation / body / stomach / akin to hufflepuff
one ‘air’ element/ intellect / mind / head / akin to and real ravenclaw
In Trio1 its: Harry, Ron, Hermione
Trio2: Ginny, Neville, Luna
JKR also likes to make use of the number seven and so I think that Malfoy acts here as our seventh personality, bringing ‘water’ / feelings / emotion / groin / slytherin into the group.
(Harry is also unwillingly part slytherin so Trio1 could be said to contain all four aspects ….oh well…)
If the four houses represent aspects of one unified personality then, on the basis of adopting Malfoy to represent the fourth, it reinforces the theme that the emotions are the hardest element to reconcile in order to form a harmonious whole personality that is at peace with itself (the deepest desire of the sorting hat).
So thanks again Dave for setting this slightly random train of thought in motion.
jensenly alluded to this in comment No. 16, but I wonder why the trio did not use the summoning charm to catch fish. They heard one of the wizards outside say “accio salmon” and then the sounds of the fish being caught. Even if they hadn’t thought of it before, they could have used this technique afterwards (to catch fish and small game as well), yet the book doesn’t indicate that they did.
Another question that has no answer in the book. Wearing the horcrux adversely affected the trio, but how did wearing it affect Umbridge? And did she notice any difference between the real thing and the copy that Hermione made? If she had noticed a difference, it is possible that word of this could have reached LV who might then have been alerted to the trio’s search for horcruxes.
Joivre, #3 can’t be right. There’s Aguamenti, which produces water.
Charlie about your Umbridge and the locket question: Your idea of Umbridge noticing the difference between the real and false locket sounds plausible to me.
The nearest I have found to any ‘official’ mention of Umbridge and the locket is this:
From the JK Rowling web chat transcript
http://www.mugglenet.com/app/news/full_story/1156
Q: How did umbridge manage to conjure a patronus while wearing the locket when harry wasnt able to
J.K. Rowling: Because she is a very nasty piece of work. She has an affinity for this horrible object, which would help rather than hinder her.
Joivre said, “I have special permission from Revgeorge to say anything I want to about music.”
Well, true. But I should probably modify that to say, permission on any postings I make. Other people may not be so generous as me.
Harry has the ability to catch fish, as the trio were in the middle of eating pike when they are interrupted by the fugitives. My take on the “lack of food” problem has more to do with not always being close to a source of food (i.e. stream, lake, etc.). And even if they could summon small game if they weren’t able to obtain fish, can you imagine any one of the trio actually killing, skinning/plucking, bleeding, and gutting it? And then cooking it? While the lack of food always seemed to annoy me as being an unnecessary problem, I am beginning to think that they were just ill-prepared and naive about how they were going to sustain themselves. Makes sense that teenagers wouldn’t give this much thought, as they have always been fed by someone else up until this point.
I apologise profusely Dave – I was on Revgeorge’s ch 14 post soooo long I lost my bearings and good sense. Restraint is the key word here when talking shop with Diva_Alix. Will avoid it in the future. I am sorry.
D’oh! Yes Aguamenti. OK now I’m back to -
1. Food
2.Money
3. Items with magical properties
4. ?
5.?
Regarding Gamp’s law, I was hunting around on the Beyond Hogwarts website and found a discussion they’d held (though I’m not sure how much to trust the conclusions). Food and money were both mentioned, of course, but so was “Intentional Curse Damage,” which I admit was intriguing (think of George’s lost ear). Among other possibilities:
- Bringing someone back from the dead
- “Cloning” yourself or someone else
- The weather
I’m not totally convinced of any of these (weather especially), though they’re interesting to consider.
I do like Joivre’s “items with magical properties,” though!
Great summary, Dave!
On Gamp’s Law, another possible exception (though mainly sheer speculation on my part): sentient beings. You can turn a teacup into a mouse or a teddy bear into a spider, but not (it seems) turn a doll into a human or a stone into a house elf. At least, not one with free will or thought; I suppose one might be able to conjure up Inferi or golems or something. I’m not aware of any canonical references to this (anybody?), but I think it at least is a plausible guess in-universe.
Might we surmise that the exceptions are (at least partly) things that are intended to keep a wizard from being a god? (Of course, on a simpler level, they’re things that are intended to keep a wizard from taking all possible tension out of the plot.)
I agree with Eric on sentient beings part as being implausible for transfiguration. My guess on the last one is oven cleaner. Otherwise there would be no use for dragon blood.
Regarding water as one of the exceptions, it could or could not work, depending on what the theory behind the Aguamenti charm. Are you creating water out of thin air, summoning it from the nearest body of water or plumbing system, or causing molecules in the atmosphere to become H2O? We’re never told.
Re: Ron’s leaving the trio. It really hurt me, but I thought it was destined to happen and I had faith that Ron would find his way back, but he needed to confront his demons. It did happen in GoF, but not nearly to the degree it happened here. Ron never truly dealt with his insecurities until this point, and the stakes are so much higher now than they were in GoF. I know of people who thought it was contrived, however.
Regarding Joivre’s apology about high-jacking threads with opera talk, I also desire to associate myself with that expression of regret (Mikado/ G&S reference). I’m tempted to go on about how I’ve learned Charlotte’s “Va…”, and I think it’s an aria Dumbledore would like, but we should take it to the previous thread or off-site I think.
Yes,
Please keep discussion reasonably on topic. If you want to continue discussion of opera and weight loss it’d be better if it was done via email.
OK Korg – I apologized already!
I will never go off topic again!
Joivre, in your first comment on this thread you mention that Borgin/Burke recognized the locket as being a horcrux. Just wondering when and where this happend as I don’t remember it at all! As far as I can recall, the only time he sees the locket is when Merope sells it to him – before Riddle even turns it into a horcrux. I assume that Hepzibah Smith buys it directly from Borgin/Burke before it is stolen from her by Riddle and turned into a horcrux. It is then hidden in the cave, stolen by Kreacher and kept among the artifacts at Grimmauld Place. When Mundungus steals it he pretty much hands it over to Umbridge, who uses it to prove her pure-blood status. I’m not sure that anyone besides Regulus and the trio actually realize that it is a horcrux. I’m interested to know more about your theory and it’s implications.
diva_alix, you mentioned that Harry seems to guess a lot of things correctly, but Ron and Hermione contually question or disregard his hunches. I have always been bothered by this – especially in the case of Ron and Hermione so easily dismissing Harry’s suspicion’s about Malfoy in OotP. It seems to me that even if they didn’t believe him, but had humoured him and helped him to investigate, they might have prevented the Death Eaters from gaining entrance into Hogwarts. In DH, when they are living in such bleakness and despair, don’t you think that they would have thought it worth investigating every small lead or idea that they might have had regarding the location of the horcruxes, or a weapon to destroy the horcruxes?
aeris_flowers I agree. Early in the series, Harry, the whole trio really, was way off much of the time, and once we all learned the truth, we wondered how we could have been so horribly duped (thank you Ms. Rowling and use of the 3rd-person limited narrative, and to John Granger for pointing out that device of narrative misdirection). However, in book 6 Harry gains so much knowledge of Voldemort, and his good instincts are what make him the acknowledged superior in DADA among the trio, yet they won’t listen to him. I think in part it is the Horcrux at work, stirring up emnity and discord.
Re: Borgin and Burke’s and the horcrux. I believe they clearly recognized it as the locket of Slytherin and being worth more than Merope knew when they saw it first, but that was long before it became a horcrux. Hermione suspects that they would recognize a horcrux, I believe, and I should hope they would, but I don’t think we ever see them doing so.
Re: Borgin and Burke recognizing a Horcrux
Page 237, UK edition
“I can’t see him hiding anything at Borgin and Burke’s, ” said Harry, who had made this point many times before, but said it again simply to break the nasty silence. “Borgin and Burke were experts on Dark objects, they would have recognised a Horcrux straight away.”
The question is why does Harry make this assumption, particularly in light of the fact that he knows that another lover of Dark objects – Lucius Malfoy – did not recognise the diary as a Horcrux. Also, Harry is talking about all of the remaining Horcruxes and their respective hiding places, not the already obtained locket.
In #27 Mavis, I also saw the mentioned site with a lot of speculation.
The 5 Principal Exceptions to Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration
Exception #1: Food
In DH chapter 15 Hermione uses food as an example the first time she mentions the five exceptions. Later, in Chapter 29, Neville explains how they discovered the passage from the Room of Requirement to The Hogs Head, and Ron remembers the earlier scene:
[Neville} "I went through it and met Aberforth. He's been providing us with food, because for some reason, that's the one thing the room doesn't really do." [Ron] “Yeah, well, food’s one of the five exceptions to Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration,” said Ron to general astonishment.(DH pg. 578us/465uk)
Exception #2: Money
An example of not being able to create money out of thin air in Chapter 28 of Goblet of Fire:
“Count yer coins! An’ there’s no point in tryin’ to steal any, Goyle,” he added, his beetle-black eyes narrowed. “It’s leprechaun gold. Vanishes after a few hours.” (GOF pg. 544/472)
Exception #3: Intentional Curse Damage(Dark Magic)
George is almost killed by Snape with the sectumsempra curse, we see there are restrictions to healing charms.
[Lupin] “I think so, although there’s no chance of replacing his ear, not when it’s been cursed off–” (DH pg. 71/64)
[Molly] “I can’t make it grow back, not when it’s been removed by Dark Magic. But it could’ve been so much worse…He’s alive.” (DH pg. 73/66)
More examples: Dumbledore’s broken nose, Ludo Bagman’s squashed nose, Mad-eye Moody’s various injuries, and Bill’s face after being savaged by Fenrir Greyback.
Exception #4: Bringing a human being back from the dead
We’ve been told over and over again in the Harry Potter books and by J.K. Rowling herself “that dead is dead”.
Sirius has fallen through the veil, Lupin tells Harry: “There’s nothing you can do, Harry–” “Get him, save him, he’s only just gone through!” “It’s too late, Harry–” “We can still reach him–” Harry struggled hard and viciously, but Lupin would not let go… “There’s nothing you can do, Harry… Nothing… He’s gone.” (OotP pg. 806/711)
There has been much Harry Potter dissuasion elsewhere, research I have discovered that some may have different views of just what constitutes the Five Exceptions. I wish to learn what others may bring to this query. If you wish to disagree on any of the exceptions by all means, do so. please
I have a question for all of you friends, About The Five Principal Exceptions to Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration. What is the Fifth Exception? Jo Rowling and through Hermione have stated there are five parts of this law. Thank you Dave and everyone for all your insights.
Good question, R. Ross.
I seem to recall an intervir\ew that Rowling gave where she said one of her first tasks was to work out what magic COULDN’T do. And then she listed off those things. I cannot remember what they all were at the moment… Maybe some more digging is required.
Great post, R. Ross. I think you have nailed 4/5 which is quite an accomplishment!
ThanksKorg/Matthew, I found this to start: (I’ll keep diggen)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_in_Harry_Potter
The Limits of Magic essay by Caius Marcius
http://www.hplex.info/essays/essay-limits-of-magic.html
Good research R. Ross
I’m going to guess that the fifth exception is immortality.
Immortality would appear to be it but what about Nicholas Flammel. Or is the Philosopher’s Stone a special case?
Maybe the fifth is inability to predict the future accurately.
Yes, Korg,
Nicholas Flammel and the Philosopher’s Stone the stone’s properties allowed him to live a very very long time but without it he did die. Yes a special case.
Some HP Trivia: Gamp’s Law apparently uses the surname of the person who discovered it. Hesper Gamp, a witch married to Sirius Black II, (1877-1952) might be that person or a relative of that person. A look at the House of Black and their Family Tree shows a lot of interesting things, marriages and possible relations. (notice: James Potter and Harry) thus, shows the Blacks are additionally related to the families Longbottom, Weasley, Flint, Rosier, Macmillan, Yaxley, Prewett, Crabbe, and Crouch. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/harrypotter/images/8/83/Black_Family_Tree.png
Great post, Dave. Sorry to be so late. What a deterioration of the Trio, especially Harry. It only gets bleaker.
Terrific work, R. Ross, with footnotes!
Korg, Sybill Trelawney does accurately predict the future accurately, more than a few times, as we’ve discussed here (in one of the latter chapters of the HBP read through). So that can’t be it. Changing the past, thus the future happens, too, via the time turner.
…Maybe I haven’t done enough supplemental HP reading, so this is a dumb comment, but….
It’s Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration, right? So wouldn’t that mean we’re only talking physical objects that can be Transfigured? Putting things like immortality and spell damage off the table?
Is there something I’m not getting?
You’re getting it right Janet. As I already posted way back in comment 17 –
While there are clearly limits to the effects of magic, one cannot truly raise the dead, one cannot actually force someone to love you (only become obsessed with you), etc. – as Gamp’s Law addresses Elemental Transfiguration it deals only with changes to physical substances.
So items 3 and 4 by R.Ross are by their nature -off the table.
I believe objects of magical properties – like the philosopher’s stone, the invisibility cloak, a broomstick, potions, unicorn blood etc. etc. – cannot be transfigured.
So I am back to:
1. Food
2. Money
3. Objects of inherent magical properties
4.?
5.?
In other words – you can’t turn a stone into the Philosopher’s Stone. Raising someone from the dead – or not – is an effect of magic. Putting someone’s ear back on after a curse of dark magic – or not – is an effect of magic – elemental transfiguration.
Whoops didn’t finish – Immortality is an effect of the Philosopher’s Stone. You’re not transfiguring anything.
Elemental transfiguration is different from magical effects. IMHO
Remember too that Snape himself could heal curse damage from the Sectumsempra spell, else Draco would have died after fighting Harry in HBP. He seems to have been the only person who knew how to reverse Sectumsempra, though, which he appears to have invented himself as a teenager.
The Law is saying that magic has limits. We are physical beings and can not be conjured out of the air or nothing.
If one’s ear is blasted off by a dark magic curse the ear “can not be fixed or grown back”, this is definitely physical.
When a person dies there is no way to bring them back to life. No one has the power to create a life one with a soul a sentient being someone that is aware, this is also physical.
Steve,
Sectumsempra needn’t be a curse or evil in nature. It’s a cutting spell. I mean, Neville slashes Nagini’s head off with Godric’s sword. Harry slashed Draco with a spell. I don’t see the difference except the obvious.
Arabella,
Twelawney predicts yes but not by magic. Its because she has some seer qualities. Dumbledore is convinced that she has only prophecied twice- once about Harry and once in front of Harry. She didn’t use magic to do this.
I see what you are saying R.Ross – however, since when is a soul physical?
Now – Albus actually does transfigure (he was the Professor of Transfiguration at one time) statues to life in OotP. Whether they have souls or not I don’t know.
Also it is Elemental transfiguration. Element being the key:
Definition: A substance that cannot be broken down by chemical means. Elements are defined by the number of protons they possess.
Humans can be broken down by chemical means. Human parts can be broken down by chemical means. Now I’m not saying that lost body parts can be replicated or cloned exactly by magic. That is something different.
Korg, regarding Sectumsempra – it is dark magic.
page 524 Half Blood Prince
“I didn’t mean it to happen,” sad Harry at once. His voice echoed in the cold, watery space. “I didn’t know what that spell did.”
But Snape ignored this. “Apparently I underestimated you, Potter,” he said quietly. “Who would have thought you knew such Dark Magic? Who taught you that spell?”
Also – Korg Divination is a branch of magic according to Harry Potter wikia -
Divination is a subject taught at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. It teaches methods of divining the future, or gathering insights into future events, through various rituals and tools. The magic taught in this class, as well as the ability to say prophetic things is a branch of magic referred to as “divination.”
Joivre,
I never wrote that divination wasn’t a branch of magical study. Its made pretty clear in the novels that the only reason Trelawney is at Hogwarts is because Dumbledore doesn’t want her falling into Voldemort’s clutches. All the other professors, especially MacGonnagal, are derisive of the subject being taken seriously. Doesn’t Firenze say that it’s something that cannot be taught or learnt? Also, “insights” into the future are definitely not clearly reading the future. Kind of like Galadriel’s mirror. Things only come to pass if the view turns aside to prevent what they’ve seen.
Harry Potter wikia? What’s that? Just a bunch of fans writing articles… like us.
I’m unconvinced by that Snape quote too. I think he was trying to instill into Lily’s son a loathing of that type of behaviour. By calling it dark magic he knew Harry would stay away from it. It was a dark thing to do with a bit of neutral magic.
Joivre — Respectfully, I don’t think focusing on the “Elemental” of Gamp’s Law get us much, as everything can be broken down into elements, organic and non-organic.
I think we have to focus on Transfiguration. Gamp’s Law isn’t a general law of magic, it’s a law about Transfiguring — turning one object into another. (To the best of my knowledge, Transfiguration doesn’t deal with making objects appear out of thin air, at least in the lessons we saw from McGonagall — but I could be forgetting something, so please correct me!)
Here’s what I think, speaking as a writer: I think JKR made it up. “Hmm, I can’t have them conjuring food… I know! I’ll make it impossible. It’ll be a Law… no, an Exception to a Law. But that’ll sound like I made it up. So we need more than one Exception — Five! Five sounds good! And if Hermione says it, everyone will accept it as fact. Okay, good. ‘The Five Exceptions to Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration.” I like that. Hmmm, someday someone will ask me who Gamp is. Well, I’ll deal with that later. Okay, where was I?…”
I say this with all the greatest of respect for JKR and the incredibly complex world she created for us. But my bet is, if someone asked JKR what the 5 exceptions are, she’d come up with an answer…. and we would all then immediately find the exceptions to the Exceptions from the book, and we’d end up with two solid Exceptions (food and money) and some very wobbly and inconsistent logic….
JMHO…..
Yes Janet – I agree that the word elemental might be more metaphorical – but why use it at all? Why not just the 5 exceptions to transfiguration. I think the word elemental has something to do with it. But I could be all wrong.
And yes, Ms. Rowling made it up – she made everything up! This is fiction and a world about magic. The thing that is different is that Ms. Rowling is renowned for her meticulous back story of absolutely everything. Reams and reams and reams of it. Enough for an encyclopedia. I hardly think she would place herself in a position of not knowing the exceptions to one of the basic laws of her world. The thought that she made up the specific number of exceptions of a basic law and didn’t know the individual components before she put it in the final draft, especially when she numbers them, is unthinkable in my humble opinion.
I agree to disagree with you Korg. I think diviniation is magic. Trelawney’s prediction is stored in the Ministry of Magic. No where in canon is it said that predictions are not magic. I think both predictions by Trelawney were the result of magic. Regardless of what the other teachers think of the imprecision of the subject or what you think of Wikia.
I also disagree with you that Sectumsempra is a neutral curse and Snape was just trying to scare Harry into not using it. It was invented by the kid who knew more Dark Magic than any of his fellow students for one purpose only – “for enemies”(HBP 21). Called Dark Magic by the inventor, as well as Mrs. Weasley(DH 5), there is not one instance in canon where it is used in a neutral sense. In other words – no on uses Sectumsempra to slice and dice carrots.
Joivre–yes. Sectumsempra is one of the more powerful dark spells we encounter–it’s not the killing curse, but it can kill. And cut wands.
The intriguing thing about Snape’s demand ‘Who taught you…?’ is that he knows: no one could have taught Harry. It’s Snape’s own signature spell. So either Harry’s channeling Voldemort (then why would he attack Malfoy?) or he has found Snape’s missing diary.
This is one of my favorite sequences for the Snape as Artist theme, btw. Happy little rabbit trail…
In DH chapter 15 The Goblin’s Revenge
“…There were several plunks on the canvas over their heads. It had started to rain.
“Well, you’ve obviously got a problem,” said Harry. “Spit it out, will you?”
Ron swung his long legs off the bed and sat up. He looked mean, unlike himself…”
[few minutes later] “…The rain was pounding the tent, tears were pouring down Hermione’s face, and the excitement of a few minutes before had vanished as if it had never been, a short-lived firework that had flared and died, leaving everything dark, wet, and cold…”
According to Thomas C. Foster the author of How to Read Literature Like a Professor, rain can either represent the character’s inner mood and thoughts or it can symbolize a catharsis — a new beginning for that character.
Rain is a symbol for tears, sorrow, anger, and on the other side of cleansing and renewal, forgiveness. Trembling and the color gray are also signs of depression or inner turmoil. The rain drops pre-shadowed Hermione’a later tears and her utter sorrow despair over Ron’s living. This was a very hard chapter for me and some have discussed that they worried for Ron’s life by him leaving. In hope I felt by him leaving this would be an excellent opportunity for him to grow up and fight his way back to both of his best love ones.
Snape doesn’t KNOW that Sectumsempra was used. He may be suspicious. All he’s aware of is that Draco has been severely wounded by a spell.
Joivre,
I’ll say it again, I never wrote that Divination ISN’T a branch of magic. Stop suggesting that I did, please.
Mr Pond, not sure that Sectumsempra is exclusive to Snape. DH indicates he favors it, but that doesn’t mean others don’t know it. Everyone knew Levicorpus rather quickly after he created it. He even had the indignity of having it used on him.
Also, Voldemort wasn’t exactly a fan of the Malfoys in HBP. He gave Draco an impossible mission just to see him fail. It doesn’t seem out of the possibility that he would mind Sectumsempra being used on him.
That’s right, Derek D.
We don’t even know if Snape created the spell. Only that he likes it for enemies.
I’m sorry Korg – but I think you are misunderstanding me –
I’ll make simple.
You said:
Dumbledore is convinced that she has only prophecied twice- once about Harry and once in front of Harry. She didn’t use magic to do this.
I said:
I think both predictions by Trelawney were the result of magic.
We disagree – I don’t have a problem with this Korg. I also politely disagree with you that we “don’t even know if Snape created the spell.” After Harry attempts to use Sectumsempra and Levicorpus on Snape after Dumbledore’s death in HBP 28.
You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them – I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you’d turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don’t think so…no!
It was Snape’s spell alright.
I also disagree that Snape didn’t “know” that Sectumsempra was used. He knew the curse and he knew the damage and he knew the remedy for it. Just my humble small opinion.
Oh Mr. Pond – I am looking forward to Snape as Artist!
Yes Derek D. Other people probably knew the Sectumsempra – the other death eaters for instance. Lupin knew. (DH 5)
Sectumsempra was always a specialty of Snape’s
Or maybe Ron found the potions book and told Harry about it. The main thing was – Snape knew he orginated the spell so there would either have to be only a few degrees of separation of this knowledge between himself and Harry – or Harry was the one who discovered his old potions book. Either way Sectumsempra was clearly recognized by Snape.
Joivre,
I stand corrected on the sectumsempra creation.
I still don’t think Trelawney’s prophesying was a use of magic. I think prophecy as being beyond magic and into the spiritual. There’s prophecy in the muggle world too. Divination and prophecy are very different.
Yes, Korg, I can see where you are going with this. And you bring up a very interesting point about the natural vs. supernatural of magic. I got this off UK’s Channel 4 Spellbinder section:
When thinking of magic it is important to take on board the distinction between natural magic and supernatural magic. Supernatural magic relied on something beyond or above the natural. Practitioners used spells that summoned spirits or demons. The Elizabethan magus John Dee has become renowned for his conversations with angels.
Natural magic did not require anything supernatural. Rather, it worked with what was natural but was hidden from science. Science, sometimes referred to as natural philosophy, dealt with what was evident to the senses. Natural magic dealt with what was hidden, the occult. The word occult at this time did not have any sense of evil as it does today – it simply meant hidden.
There definitely is a difference between Natural Magic and Supernatural Magic. Yet they’re both called magic.
For more information or to investigate the source:
http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/spellbinder/intro.shtml
In fact – the more I think about it – the more I see this as related to this site’s very existance.
A lot – and I mean a LOT of Christians out there were scared and angry about these books. Why? – one little word – occult.
Some religious denominations view the occult as being anything supernatural or paranormal which is not achieved by or through God (as defined by those religious denominations), and is therefore the work of an opposing and malevolent entity.
Now the problem here as I see it for Christians who follow the dogma line is – these books hinge all on one prophecy – and it’s a prophecy not given by God. Hence it is the occult. The occult has a big bad reputation in religious circles – and if Trelawny is seeing the future without God’s influence – then it is considered “promoting of the occult”.
I say – I believe the ability to prophecize is magic in the Harry Potter realm and Christianity does not believe in the existance of magic and neither do I. I believe in empirical science of the Age of Enlightenment. Hence the reality presented in these books is fictional in nature – not applicable to everyday reality (so to speak). These books are not about the occult – they are about Magic. Ergo – not “promoting of the occult”.
Of course, for me, even if it was – I have no trouble reading them. I actually love paranormal stuff – I don’t believe it – but I’m fascinated by it.
Interesting, Joivre. I must confess that, in my younger and more priggish days, I spent some time as a Harry-hater (before ever having read the books, of course!). I don’t recall that I ever heard anyone mention the aspect of “prophecy” that you mention, though (they hadn’t read them either). It was more “there’s magic, and the Bible says magic is evil, so QED.”
You make a good observation (obliquely) about the inherent strict dualism in that worldview– “if something doesn’t come directly from God, it must therefore come directly from the devil.” No room for anything that comes from, say, human insight or imagination!
I actually have once (scarily enough) seen a real website by a wiccan who was using HP as a hook to explain what wicca was all about. But even that site said words to the effect of, “The kind of magick wiccans do is very different from the kind that Harry and his friends do in their fictional world.” Even real “magicians” don’t recognize the magic in the Potterverse as “magic” in our world.
Philologically, the point about “natural” vs. “supernatural” magic reminds me of the magical connection between glamour and grammar (no, really). Which I think it’s not entirely unlikely to suppose JKR is aware of, actually, since she seems quite fond of her Latin and Old French root words.
Ha! I loved that link Eric P.! It’s/its glamour bewitched me!
Yes – you are right in saying Magic is more of a deal-breaker for the unitiated-Potterverse Christian. All I can say is thank God for the Enlightenment (my favorite era in music history as well):
During the Age of Enlightenment, belief in the powers of witches and sorcerers to harm began to die out in the West. But the reasons for disbelief differed from those of early Christians. For the early Christians the reason was theological—that Christ had already defeated the powers of evil. For the post-Enlightenment Christians, the disbelief was based on a belief in rationalism and empiricism.
But alas – the alarm still echos, centuries later, at the word “Magic”. I am so glad you read the books and found them not only harmless to your faith and the quality of your worship of God – but perhaps have found that they enrich your faith and the quality of your worship of God even more.