Those who have envisioned a scenario in which Harry passes through the veil and returns in Deathly Hallows (and I post this because I know we’ve got a few commenters here who have proposed that), as well as believers in the “Stoppered Death” theory, need to check out John Granger’s recent post, in which he ponders a fascinating quote from Rowling in 2000 as reported by Anne Johnstone:
Will Harry survive in the final book, due out on July 21? Your guess is as good as mine, but it’s worth remembering something Joanne said in 2000 when we were discussing the importance for the dramatic tension in her books of there being limits to what is susceptible to magic. One fundamental is that you can’t reverse death. “That’s a given,†she said, “though in book seven you’ll see just how close you can get.â€
John goes on to explain why he thinks this is support for a Dumbledore return, a theory I still believe Rowling shot out of the water last year, but there are a few other theories proposed in the post that I think are quite interesting fodder for speculation.
Here’s what I’m wondering: Does Rowling’s quote “just how close you can get” refer to just how close you can get to death without dying (which would fit Stoppered Death or the use of the Draught of Living Death), or does it refer to just how close you can come to reversing death (which might also fit Stoppered Death, but might also fit a veil theory)?
Thoughts?
Update:Â Here is the full text of the quote, and it makes quite a difference:
“That’s a given. Without it the plot would fall apart, though in Book Seven you’ll see just how close you can get to the dead. You can be brought back from being petrified and from injuries that in the real world are mortal, depending on the degree of skill that a particular wizard possesses. You can’t go to any wizard and say ‘Will you cure my terminally ill relative?’ It’s a mirror image of the real world in that sense.”
So…”how close you can get to the dead” definitely makes it sound like some close interaction with dead people, which would point us toward some theory about the veil. However, she follows that statement up with a few comments that sound a whole lot like “Stoppered Death.” These comments might be some of the only evidence we’ve had for “Stoppered Death” straight from the lips of Rowling herself.
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{ 20 comments… read them below or add one }
Rena,
You believed Harry is a horcurux. I wonder whether you remember points, which had made you believe. Did Dumbledore know about all the points?
Would it be possibel to remove my previos comment? I place a comment on very wrong plase.
Travis,
I read John Granger’s post. There are three interpretations actually:
Stoppered death theory applying to Dumbledore, starting as early as the end of book 1, or between books 5 and 6.
Draught of living death theory applying either to Dumbledore at the end of book 6 or to Harry at the end of book 7
Going beyond the veil theory applying to Harry at the end of book 7.
To me, “coming close to reversing death” sounds like it means how much someone who is dead can keep on acting as if in some way alive. The likeliest candidate for that someone would be Dumbledore, perhaps since the end of book 1, but in my opinion more likely since the summer holidays between book 5 and book 6. Which would fit the “stoppered death” theory. I am not fond of that theory, but it does fit.
I suppose you could look at a trip beyond the veil and back again as “coming close to reversing death”, but it doesn’t really fit for me. If Harry does cross the veil and then returns, I don’t think he will have died, and thus there will be nothing to “reverse”. To have a near reversal, you need a death. I expect Harry to live – for reasons having nothing to do with the story – if he did die, his death would have to be completely reversed. Which we know won’t happen.
I still think there will be a trip beyond the veil and back again, and that it will involve Voldemort. I think that the US book cover is a scene from beyond the veil, not because of the curtains (which Granger took to be evidence and then disposed of), but because of the hooded figures, the amphitheatre and the general air of “other worldliness”. Plus, as I’ve said before, that veil slightly rippling, as if by an unfelt breeze, and the almost audible voices, is as irresistable a teaser as any I can recall in any book.
But the “close to reversed death” theory which applies to Dumbledore and the “trip beyond the veil” theory which applies to Harry are not mutually exclusive.
First off, Rowling has said that “dead is dead”. That should put an end to these kind of discussions. But when you have the kind of magic that can allow a deatheater to pose as an auror for an entire year and have a traitor hide out as a mouse for 13 years then, yes, anything is possible.
The death of Sirius is in question because he didn’t technically die, he went through the veil. However, Dumbledore is aware of what happened to Sirius and it’s inconceivable that if that had been anyway to reverse the loss of Sirius, Dumbledore would not have pursued it. We may in some way be able to communicate with Sirius in the final book, but I can’t believe that he’s coming back.
As to Dumbledore, returning him from the dead feels like “cheating”. Like saying that none of the rules apply and we can do anything. Again, I know that Dumbledore could have faked his death and that would avoid the “dead is dead” argument.
But bringing Dumbledore back would literally ruin (well harm) the entire series. The first three books were essentially stand alone kids novels although they became progressively darker. Book 4 not only ended in the death of an innocent that we’d come to like (Cedric Diggory), but it set the table for the ultimate showdown between Harry and Voldemort in book 7.
Just imagine for 1 moment that book 7 ends and both Dumbledore and Harry are alive and Voldemort is defeated. What would that feel like? Like a child’s book where bad guys are defeated and the good guys always come out on top. It’s not only too good to be true, it would FEEL like it’s too good to be true. Rowling has spent much effort of books 4, 5 and 6 to make Harry (and us) aware that not everything is black and white, not everyone is good or evil, good does not always win and evil does not always lose. All this would be lost if everybody gets to ride into the sunset.
Dumbledore may still have a roll to play in book 7. He may have prepared a visual will, provided Harry with a weapon, left behind his memories, etc. His spirit may still be with us.
We all expect Harry to be triumphant (even if he must die to achieve his triumph). But for the series to be triumphant, dead is dead and Dumbledore must remain dead.
Falkirk, neither this post nor John Granger’s post is suggesting that Dumbledore is not dead. We have all accepted that Dumbledore is dead and won’t come back. Even if we didn’t understand or accept the fundamental principles that make it so, the appearance of his portrait beside those of all the other dead Headmasters in the Headmaster’s study should prove it beyond dispute.
That’s not the point.
The point is, what does JKR’s “close to reversing death” comment refer to? Whose death was or will be “almost” reversed?
Dumbledore’s? Harry’s? Someone else’s?
And how?
Lisa at Accio-Quotes wrote me to say there is a difference between the 2000 interview quotation as printed in July 2000 and the version given by Anne Johnstone in the Glasgow Herald today. The original reads:
One of her fundamentals is that you can’t reverse death: “That’s a given. Without it the plot would fall apart, though in Book Seven you’ll see just how close you can get to the dead. You can be brought back from being petrified and from injuries that in the real world are mortal, depending on the degree of skill that a particular wizard possesses. You can’t go to any wizard and say ‘Will you cure my terminally ill relative?’ It’s a mirror image of the real world in that sense.â€
The difference is the addition of “to the dead.” Superficially at least, this version supports Hans Andrea’s prediction that we’re going through the veil to be closer to the dead rather than being closer to a death reversal, no?
(links and discussion back at HogPro)
“You’ll see how close you can get (to reversing death)” vs “You’ll see just how close you can get to the dead”.
Quite a difference, isn’t there?
Ignore my comments above (#3 and #5). I think the revised quote supports my original theory: in book 7 Harry will cross the veil without dying, and then return.
Why will he cross to the other side? For knowledge, would be my first guess.
How will he cross? Through the veil and because he will no longer fear death. And that because of the people he loves who have already died. And that unfortunately that may include one or two more beloved friends.
How will he come back? Someone or something will guide him back. Padfoot or Fawkes would be my guess.
Thanks for the correction, John.
John, thanks for the posting the correction! I was just coming here to do that. It makes all the difference in the world, it seems…I think something having to do with the veil is the most likely candidate.
All, I’ve updated the post with the full quote, and added a few brief reflections on it.
Travis,
I’ve been away from my computer today and when I saw this story on Leaky I immediately headed over here to make sure you’d seen it. I was glad to see you had.
My first thought when I read it was, Harry’s going to be the one who almost dies and has to have a skilled wizard keep him from dying. And that bit about how close you can get to the dead, Harry is going to come into contact with someone who is dead: Dumbledore? Sirius? James and/or Lily? They’ll still be dead, but he’ll get to interact with them in some way that will be different than just talking to a portrait.
Thanks what I think. I’m still theorizing that there will be a chapter toward the end of the book that will be written from a different perspective than we’re used it, it will start out, at least, making us think that Harry is dead. Whatever happens at the end of the previous chapter will seem like it had to have killed Harry. But as we keep reading we’ll find out Harry isn’t really dead. It might almost be like the scene from Tom Sawyer when they thought Tom and Huck were dead and got to see what people thought and then they weren’t really dead. But as to specific circumstances, I can’t possibly predict how it will work out.
Reyhan said:
“How will he come back? Someone or something will guide him back. Padfoot or Fawkes would be my guess.”
I would add Lupin to that list, but mostly I think it might be Luna. She didn’t fear the veil, but also heard the voices. And it’s Luna who has always said things to calm Harry about his grief or his fears.
I don’t think he would be called back by someone who had actually died though–I’m thinking of someone who has a near-death experience and comes out of a coma or whatever state they were in because people kept talking to them. And Luna seems to be just the person who wouldn’t give Harry up for dead, but who would keep talking and encouraging him.
Pat
Luna’s time in the dun and glory will come when it concerns the veil. She knows so much about it already. Just another example of one of the resources Harry has at his disposal.
Pat, we’re talking about two different things. You’re talking about who would call him back. That person would have to be alive. And Luna is not a bad guess, but I think I would guess Ginny. She was the only one who could stir him out of his shock after Dumbledore died.
I’m talking about who would guide him back from the other side. That would have to be someone who has already crossed the veil. Padfoot comes to mind because of astronomy and ancient mythology: Sirius is the brightest star in the night sky, helped mariners navigate, and is known as the Dog Star. My other candidate is Fawkes, who has already helped Harry return from an underworld (the chamber of secrets).
I’ve changed my mind about the comment. I don’t think by “how close you can get to the dead” means “how close you can get to dead people. The problem is simple: Harry’s already been face to face with dead people. Being face to face with dead people is a normal part of the WW, because of ghosts.
Given Rowling’s follow-up statement: “You can be brought back from being petrified and from injuries that in the real world are mortal, depending on the degree of skill that a particular wizard possesses,” I think this is Stoppered Death we’re talking about here. Her follow-up statement is most likely an explanation of the first statement.
And remember, even though she’s confirmed Dumbledore’s death, she’s also said that Dumbledore was “giving her trouble” in Deathly Hallows. I wonder: do people in a Stoppered Death state have a level of access to the dead that the rest of the world does not?
A follow-up question: would being in a Stoppered Death state allow one to walk through the veil and come back?
If Dumbledore can make himself invisible without a cloak, he can certainly pass into the Ministry and out undetected. During all his absences from the school, was Dumbledore descending into the Underworld, so to speak, through the veil? It would tie in well to Greek mythology, would it not?
Travis, I agree with your conclusion, but not all of your reasoning.
First, the ghosts. Being a ghost isn’t exactly the same as being dead (a distinction possible only in the wizarding world!) since the ghosts have elected not to cross the veil due to fear or some attachment or whatever the reason. So I don’t think meeting a ghost would be interpreted as coming close to the dead. The dead, for me, means those who have crossed the veil.
Second, her statement about Dumbledore in book 7 suggests that he’s around in some kind of manifestation. The possibilities are many: as his portrait, as a spirit on the other side of the veil where Harry goes to find him; as a memory-trace conjured from Snape’s wand by means of a Priori Incantem, or possibly as a ghost.
When JKR says he’s giving her trouble, it can mean many things. The most likely challenge, for me, would be how to keep him dead and yet participating in the story. If he speaks through his portrait, she’d have to change his role from that of an active planner and doer, to a passive commentator who reacts to what’s happening. Not an easy transition for someone who has been (with all due respect) the puppet-master of the series.
So I don’t think the difficulty has to do as much with how he comes back, as how she is to write him in his new role.
I will agree with your conclusion, however. The context of the statement does suggest that someone gets very, very close to being dead, and therefore to the dead, and then comes back due to someone’s skill.
And the most obvious candidate for this is Dumbledore, if he almost died from the cursed Peverell ring, and was kept alive through the ingenuity of the Potions Master, Snape.
But I didn’t see any evidence that Dumbledore was communing with the dead in his Stoppered Death state, if that’s what it was.
Travis, in response to your comment #14: you’ve come far, little grasshopper, from JKR’s adamant stance about the finality of death, to your view of Dumbledore going back and forth from the land of the dead as if through some kind of revolving door.
My recollection of Greek mythology is that the mortals who made the trip and back out again (Ulysses and Orpheus) only did it once.
All of the comments here are fascinating!
I wonder, how does all of this tie in with Rowling’s comment that if people knew how much of a Christian she really was, they’d get some clues about the final outcome of the book? I know I didn’t translation that very well, but hopefully you all know what I mean. It’s a quote Travis has mentioned before.
Reyhan, I certainly didn’t mean to imply that JKR’s statement about “Dumbledore giving her trouble” was about “with how he comes back,” so I agree with you on that point.
Travis, in response to your comment #14: you’ve come far, little grasshopper, from JKR’s adamant stance about the finality of death, to your view of Dumbledore going back and forth from the land of the dead as if through some kind of revolving door.
I don’t think I’ve come any farther than Rowling’s quote implies: death is final, it appears you can get really, really “close to the dead” without dying. I’ll modify my statement so it doesn’t sound like the veil is a revolving door: Maybe Dumbledore made one trip to the place of the dead and back.
My recollection of Greek mythology is that the mortals who made the trip and back out again (Ulysses and Orpheus) only did it once.
A very good point, hence my revised statement.
If Dumbledore were able to pass in and out of the veil, then it is possible he could leave behind memories of his trip to the underworld that Harry, Ron and Hermione could then explore in the pensieve.
My thoughts exactly!