SPOILER ALERT!
Where does one begin a post like this? There’s so much to say in response to Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, I’m not even sure what issue to tackle first.
Let’s start simple: I loved the book. There are a few disappointments, perhaps, but on the whole, it’s a tremendous novel, and it finishes this epic series powerfully. Simply put, Rowling has succeeded in writing the fairy tale-myth of our time. She ended it well.
The Christian Content of Deathly Hallows
This is a good place to start, since this was the initial stated goal of this weblog. Let’s say it plainly: The debate is over. Rowling so clearly told the Christian story in Deathly Hallows that one wonders how anyone will ever protest the series again. (They will, of course. It’ll just be all the more ludicrous). Lev Grossman has got to be kicking himself.
This book was not only filled with Christian imagery and themes, but with Scripture itself: Jesus Christ and St. Paul got quoted directly.
On the grave of Kendra and Ariana Dumbledore, we read the words of Jesus from the sermon on the mount: Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also (Matthew 6:21). On the grave of the Potters, the words of St. Paul: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26). We even get Hermione’s exegesis of the text after Harry thinks it sounds a little bit too much like something a Death Eater would say:
“It doesn’t mean defeating death in the way the Death Eaters mean it, Harry…. It means…you know…living beyond death. Living after death.” (p. 328)
Then, of course, Harry “dies” and comes back from the dead, in a much more than figurative sense (though not necessarily completely and finally). And where is he in that “afterlife” period of time with Dumbledore? At King’s Cross. Can’t get anymore obvious than that, can it? Harry is murdered by Voldemort, without so much as raising a wand in protest; he let himself die at the hands of evil men on behalf of the Wizarding World, spent a short time at King’s Cross, and then came back from the dead to defeat evil.
The effects of Harry’s death and resurrection parallel Jesus’ almost perfectly. In Jesus’ death, the power and evil and Satan are vanquished, and Satan is “disarmed” (Colossians 2:15). In Harry’s death, the same thing happens: Voldemort’s powers against the Wizarding World fail, because Harry died on their behalf:
“I’ve done what my mother did. They’re protected from you. Haven’t you noticed how none of the spells you put on them are binding? You can’t torture them. You can’t touch them. You don’t learn from your mistakes, Riddle, do you?” (p. 738)
Someone here at SoG said his would happen ages ago; I can’t remember who or when. The only point he/she missed was Harry’s resurrection. Whoever you are, if you’re reading this, show yourself! You are to be congratulated.
Oh, there’s more we could say: The cross that Harry draws on the tree next to Moody’s buried eye, the Sword of Gryffindor lying in the pool (with the clear Arthurian reference, Ron ["king"] getting the sword out of the water!), which Harry at first thinks is a “silver cross,” and more. But this is supposed to be the short review, so let’s move on.
It’s All About the Trio
One thing Rowling did quite clearly in this was remind us all of one important thing: This series is about Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I’m quite certain that coming into this, most of us thought this book would be primarily about Snape, and I was convinced Hagrid would have a much bigger role. I was also quite convinced that something would happen that would cause the trio to be back in school for the year; I really didn’t think she planned to break her structure. She did! And in doing so, she effectively removed us from Severus Snape and any other plot-stealer for the majority of the books. Sure, it felt like they were in tents for a very, very long time. But we’re experiencing this with Harry, and that whole portion of the book needed to happen for one key reasons: to build the plot surrounding Dumbledore.
The Dumbledore Plot
I couldn’t be more pleased with this book for the simple reason that Dumbledore was so prominent, and Rowling did a magnificent job with his backstory. I didn’t think we’d get his backstory. But now we know why Dumbledore is so keen to forgive, don’t we? Jesus said that the one who is forgiven much loves much. Later tonight, I will start my analysis with a lengthy post on Dumbledore (I know, suprise, right?), so I’ll not say more here.
Severus Snape
I began speculating in PubCast #20 that, due to the nature of the series – its popularity and the vast amount of analysis and speculation over the 10-year period – that Rowling would not be able to pull off the Snape surprise. For those of us in the HP world who have been analyzing the whole thing since Half-Blood Prince, it turns out I was correct. I was talking about Snape being in love with Lily just a couple days after I read Book 6. By the beginning of August, the Snape-loved-Lily and Stoppered-Death theories were already out, and those two theories comprise the big surprise Rowling was going for with Chapter 33: The Prince’s Tale.
I’m certain plenty of Fandom was surprised, of course. But anyone who’s been following Cathy Liesner’s “Stoppered Death” theory and the subsequent speculations by John Granger, Janet Batchler, and Felicity saw this coming a mile away (2 years away, to be precise).
Here’s a prediction: Big time Snape fans are going to be terribly unhappy with this book. We barely got to see the greasy git, and his death just suddenly happened. They’re going to feel robbed.
I don’t, though. I thought it was well-done.
House-Elves
So, my Ollivander theory didn’t come true, but the house-elves did fight! I’m not sure why they used kitchen knives instead of their own magic, though. Perhaps Dobby only learned how because of his desire to be free?
I love the way Rowling did this, especially as it relates to Kreacher’s development – or should I say, Harry’s development in his attitude toward Kreacher (and other oppressed magical brethren). I didn’t think Rowling would make us end up liking Kreacher; this might have been the best surprise of the book!
The Deaths
Dobby’s and Fred’s were absolutely gut-wrenching. I cried at the death of Hedwig and the deaths of Lupin and Tonks. But when Dobby and Fred died, I shut the book and walked away. I had to pull myself together. Moody’s death didn’t particularly strike me, but that was the one that had most obviously, and without a doubt, been spoiled for me.
Unanswered Questions
There are going to be a lot of complaints about unanswered questions. I’ll start with one: What’s on Draco’s left forearm? There was a lot of time spent on this in Book 6, and it was not answered. I’m guessing the Dark Mark. Anything else, and she would have worked it into a surprise. Draco almost entirely disappeared in this book. More analysis later.
How about this one: What did Harry’s parents do for a living? I figured we’d get that one answered.
I suspect there’s also going to be complaints about Harry’s use to two Unforgivable Curses. My response? I said this a long time ago: It all depends on who’s doing the “forgiving” and “not forgiving.” They’re “unforgivable” by the Ministry.
But even if we call them “Dark Magic,” I think it’s fair enough to say that Harry is still a flawed human being; he’s been so since the beginning, and he always will be. Just like the rest of us.
I’ll leave it at that for now and write more analysis later. Bath time for Sophia!
Comments will remain moderated for a while, so please be patient! Thanks!
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I totally adored this book. I found alot of touching moments throughtout it’s entirety.
I really wish Jo would continue the series, but I guess all good things must come to an end. =[
Boggart, hope you don’t mind too much – I’m going to use your questions as a place to start deconstructing some of the disappointment with the book:
Here are your “unresolved plot points” from above:
1.What did Draco have on his arm?
2.Who used magic late in life?
3.What happened to S.P.E.W (just because Dobby died won’t change the whole wizarding worlds mentality)
4.I thought the weasleys flying car would appear
5.Why does Dumbledore have a scar shaped like the London underground
6.Rowling had said that the shape of Harrys scar was important, what happened?
7.Why was it that Sirius had to die?Rowling said we would know.
Here are my answers.
1. I wondered this too, and it’s a valid question. Though we’re not told explicitly, however, Draco is in the Death Eater meeting in chapter one. So he’s a Death Eater. So it was the Dark Mark.
2. I don’t think she answered this, but I don’t think she was required to. I don’t think it’s fair to hold Rowling to anything she said in interviews about stuff we’d find out in Book 7 before actually writing Book 7. It would have been much better had she made it a policy to not say anything at all about Book 7 in interviews. But canon does not demand an answer to this question, so we don’t need one. Rowling will take care of it in an interview, I’m sure.
3. I think it’s fair to say that we saw a LOT of progress on the house-elf story, especially with Kreacher. I think it would have been incredibly insensitive to the complexity of the issue of slavery to have slavery suddenly abolished and resolved in such a short period of time. Things like that don’t change wihtout years and years of hard work, resistance, and social action.
4. This is not an unresolved plot point at all. It’s just something you wanted to see and didn’t. It wasn’t required of the plot at all.
5. This also was not required of the plot. It’s a quirky detail about Dumbledore, and I’m sure Rowling has an interesting reason, but it’s not necessary to the plot.
6. Rowling said the exact opposite. The shape was not important. I do, of course, wonder why the location was important, but perhaps some analysis will get us there.
7. Rowling has explained why Sirius died in interviews.
I think it’s really important to separate out what are really “unresolved plot points” (things the plot needed in order to be complete) and what are the things we wanted to see, but that Rowling didn’t write into it. There’s a big difference between what Rowling needed to write for the story and what things we hoped would appear in the story.
I haven’t quite been able to read all the comments, but just chiming in briefly: I found the book dissatisfying. And yes, as you know, I am a Snape fan and defender, so I am sad about his death – but it isn’t just that. I think any alert reader would have understood Severus’s chances of coming out alive were less than 50/50. Something to throw by you – yes, at least it is conclusively proven that Snape is Dumbledore’s man through and through – but I knew that by the end of OOTP. Some Snape fans truly hate his motivation; I”m one of them, though I don’t feel as strongly about it as some. He defied Voldemort, at the risk of his life, for nearly 20 years because he was carrying a torch for a dead woman who was married to someone else – someone he hated, and who hated him? I can understand why fans find this disturbing. Where is the principle here? As Pat has said, this is a young man who *keeps his promises*, at all costs, and who is remarkably brave and faithful in doing what he sees as his duty – and yet he has no moral principles except love for a dead woman who apparently never loved him? This is supposed to be enough? That does bother me a little. And it bothers me a lot that, contrary to what Rowling has said in interviews, it seems Snape was never loved.
Then, as CMWinters of livejournal points out, they just leave his body in the Shrieking Shack to rot. That’s just awful. And you cannot tell me they don’t; that they finally give the poor fellow the respect and honor he deserves, because there is *nothing* in the text to indicate it. Why not? Again, as my livejournaller friend said, what would it have taken to say in a sentence or two that Snape’s body was brought into the hall to rest with the other heros of the battle?
I am also bothered by the ‘good’ side’s casual use of Unforgivable Curses. These are called Unforgivable for a good reason. ALL of them, not just the AK, damage the soul of the caster because, in order to use them, you have to (1) succumb to hate, and (2) dehumanize your victim. ALL of them. Professor Granger makes a convincing case that, far from being the most benign of the curses, “Imperio” is actually the worst, because it denies any possibily of free will on the part of its victim and thus dehumanizes them entirely.
Then, I thought it was a bit shoddy that Harry got to die and come back to life. I thought the whole point about his mother’s eyes was that he was capable of self-sacrificial love, and that it would be required of him. It wasn’t – not really. The boy’s courage and determination to sacrifice himself for his *friends* was sincere – no problems there – but, if death is not to be feared; if the whole message of these books is that a loving acceptance of death brings triumph and life from it, why couldn’t Harry really die? I also very much missed any real reconciliation with Severus, and I really, really wanted to see Harry – who’s been an angry, vindictive kid – show love for *enemies*. There was just a glimpse of that, with Kreacher, but how much more powerful could it have been with Snape?
But I mostly hated the good guys tossing the Unforgivables around, the heavy-handed analogies to Nazism, (though Umbridge was appropriately chilling, as always – but what happened to her? Does anyone know?), the sentimental coda that told me hardly anything I actually wanted to know, and the mechanical, paint-by-numbers feel of the plot. There were several things I loved.
I was basically vindicated about Snape. I was *right* that he was a loving person, that he was Dumbledore’s man, and that he was a hero. I loved the Regulus/Kreacher story (and perhaps that in itself is indication enough that Sirius and the Marauders are not always right.) I loved Dumbledore’s backstory; I really, really loved seeing that he himself had dabbled with serious darkness and made very grave mistakes as a young man – and that it was in an attempt to conquer death. And Harry was a horcrux! Yes! I loved Harry shouting at Lupin about hs cowardice, *and* that it made Lupin straighen up and fly right. And there were other things I anticipated – I wrote out Snape curing Dumbledore in his office, and telling him about the Unbreakable Vow, in a story on my livejournal more than a year ago. Stoppered death is for real, and Dumbledore really did order Snape to kill him. I’d either guessed or agreed with both those things way back in October, 2005.
I was happy Neville and Luna got to shine. That’s about it. so I’d say I’d give the book a C, but I am grieving for poor Snape, who got so little respect even in death. There’s no excuse for that shoddiness, really. Sorry for the length!
mary, glad to see you back
Just out of curiosity: Was Harry’s naming his second son “Albus Severus” and calling Snape “the bravest man I ever knew” not a significant enough honor? I think Rowling said all she needed to say with that simple phrase. I agree, though – a simple sentence about retrieving his body would have been an excellent addition.
I don’t think Snape either hated Lily, nor that Lily hated Snape, though. And I think that his reasons for remaining good underscore, once again, the key principle of the book (and Dumbledore’s reason for trusting him): Dumbledore’s belief that love is the most powerful form of magic.
I don’t think anyone actually believes that Snape’s body was left to rot in the Shrieking Shack forever. It’s just that Harry didn’t dig a grave for him with his own hands, like he did for Dobby; he was not grieved over, like Fred, or Tonks or Lupin. He was forgotten in the battle and the subsequent celebration. No one shed a tear for him because no one loved him.
I don’t think JKR is going to hear the end of this one.
Reyhan, I don’t think so either, and it’s too bad. But I think she was prepared for this. “Some people are going to loathe it,” she said.
http://hogwartsprofessor.com/
Ok people check out this link that i found, it states exactly what we were waiting for but in some parts, didn’t get.
(this site was Pre-release)
Oh and Travis I dont mind you using my questions to start deconstructing.
Maybe unresolved plot points was a faulty title
Travis, I believe (and I could easily be wrong) that when JKR predicted that some people were going to “loathe” the book, she probably meant the Christian allusions: the sacrifice, King’s Cross (how opportune is that name!), the resurrection and the subsequent triumph over evil.
She was wrong about that. The walk in the wood, the conversation with the dead, the vision of Tom Riddle’s hell, and (to a lesser extent) the final battle, are classic. They’re the best things she’s ever done, and people will recognize that, regardless of their religious affiliation – or lack thereof.
I also believe that she has always underestimated the fascination Snape exerts over her readers, to the extent of exasperation. It’s a wonderful case of a creation developing a life almost independent of the author. I ask myself: how can you get angry over the fact that you didn’t get to attend a fictional character’s funeral? It reminds me of the police officer who drew his gun and started firing when the bad guys on the television show he was watching had cornered the detective hero.
Boggart, you’re a good sport, thanks!
Yeah, I think it best to discuss which things we hoped to see but didn’t, as distinct from actual plot holes, which should also be distinct from things Rowling said in interviews but didn’t answer in Book 7.
Oh and Travis I dont mind you using my questions to start deconstructing.
Maybe unresolved plot points was a faulty title
Wow travis u commented on the site too. I never noticed.
Maybe Snape’s mother loved him?
I know a lot of snape fans would have preferred that he be doing the right things for a more ‘right’ reason other than undying love and remorse for Lily. His interest in the Dark Arts was painted by JKR as more than casual, even when he was at Hogwarts. (In a way that section of the Pensieve scene reminded me of the “ghost of christmas past” section of “Christmas Carol,” where Scrooge’s fiance tells him that he has changed so much the relationship has to be broken off, even though he protests that he still loves her.
In the end JKR left us with something a lot more complex than the all-bad Snape, or the secretly good Snape. She left us with someone tortured and complex to the last moment of his life, and the implication to me of the remaining chapters is that it took Harry a while to come round to the idea of him being a good guy after the battle was all over. (Because it’s true, he falls off the radar after his death until the epilogue — he’s not at King’s Cross, he’s not among the shades who assist Harry in his “last walk” — he’s just — gone.)
I wonder if perhaps JKR herself wrote him this way to avoid making him the focal point of the stories, and yank the focus squarely back to Harry? (Because it is undeniable that for a long while, and especially after HP6, many would have argued that Snape was becoming the most interesting character and in real danger of supplanting Harry as a Hero.)
Julie H, chicago
Reyhan, very well said. I noted in a podcast a while ago that Rowling seemed quite taken aback that people liked Snape so much. Orson Scott Card’s analysis of Snape was almost bang on – he’s a character who went from being a necessary plot point to taking on a life of his own, even within the text. This is why it feels like, to many, his very limited role in DH is a disappointment. I still don’t think it is, necessarily; after all, HBP was his book.
One does wonder whether Rowling was even unaware of the role Snape had taken on in the series. In some ways, he was sort of handled as a plot-turner, nothing more in Book 7. I need to do a re-read of “The Prince’s Tale” in order to re-assess. I did start to get the feeling that there are things Rowling wrote about Snape that came, as Card said, from her subconscious – things she was investing into Snape that even she. I think I’ll take this up on a podcast.
But you are correct: the life of Snape outside the series itself, in Fandom, has been completely unbelievable, and in some places, baffling to me.
And I also think you’re correct that she thought people would loathe it because of the blatantly Christian content. You’re also correct that the climax is what will make the series a classic in the end. But I also think it’s possible she thought people would loathe it after stumbling across some of the insanely long “unanswered questions” lists posted on fan sites.
Julie, you’re right – I think Snape took over the series to an extent even JKR hadn’t intended, and Book 7 was Rowling’s way of swinging the whole focus of the story back onto the Trio.
I agree with you Travis and others here. I loved Deathly Hallows. The symbolism she uses in this book is so profound and the Vancouver Sun quotation was fulfilled to the letter. We see Harry Potter reaching out to the outcasts (house elves and goblins) and smuggling muggles out from trials. We see him saving the life of Draco Malfoy. We see him taking the sword out of the water in the forest (Arthurian overtones) and going into the forest to his death. Voldemort serves as the embodiment of evil like a Hitler (taking over the Ministry and imposing regulations and registration and killing of muggles) as well as Lucifer (Dark Ascending reminds me of that verse in Isaiah 14 as well as Voldemort flying). Cross imagery? Like you said Travis, Mad-Eye’s grave, the Sword of Gryffindor that Harry thought was a silver cross, and yes King’s Cross. There is just so much Christian imagery being invoked here.
I found it interesting that after Harry Potter visited his parents grave, he was going to suggest to Hermione to take refuge in the church nearby with the parishioners singing Christmas carols but Hermione interrupted his thoughts.
Also the siver doe is a female stag, a symbol of Christ. And did anyone notice the William Penn quotation? He was a Quaker Christian.
Harry has really transformed alchemically in his reaction to Dudley, Kreacher, Voldemort, Snape. He’s a changed man and he took on the Dark Lord and came out victorious.
I love this novel!!!!!!!!!!!
There is an interesting quality about the chapter “The Prince’s Tale” It’s like scenes from a movie which have been cut and spliced together. Of course, watching memories in a Pensieve is a lot like that. But for me there’s a sense of a complete story that we’re only seeing portions of. There is no “complete story” of course, not yet, and likely not ever. But it feels as if there is. That is magic.
And speaking of movies, I think that JKR has started writing more like a scriptwriter, and her novels are becoming more like screenplays. There are several scenes in DH which play like scenes from a movie. People are bound to disagree, but I like the change.
I forgot to mention that Deathly Hallows probably has more references to church and God than any previous HP novel. Also when Harry went to his death, he was accompanied by his dead parents and others, which reminded me of the dead that went into Jerusalem at Christ’s death and resurrection in Matthew 27. I think this scene and the resurrection scene after the “afterlife” convo with Dumbledrore was probably more profound than the Aslan crucible scene and I love Narnia.
hmmm i posted the same thing twice
The whole King’s Cross chapter was excellent.
In tone I was put in mind of the Tolkien story- Leaf by Niggle and inside the stable in The Last Battle.
I’d like to encourage everyone to read Leaf by Niggle especially if the King’s Cross chapter was special to them
Matthew
Seriously_Black,
Good to see you post here again.
you write-
“I’d like to give folks here the satisfaction of hearing me acknowledge that I was wrong about Rowling’s intentions on a number essentials.”
I don’t think anyone here was has been waiting for DH to come out and show you to be wrong. It doesn’t satisfy me to see that you were wrong. Everyone has been shown wrong by this book, at least those who made some speculations. For myself, I cannot imagine people saying “I told you so!”. I really couldn’t care less.
“Snape was indeed shown to be resoundingly good – so good in fact that Harry names one of his children after him. Apparently “I did it all for love†pardons all wrongs after all (shades of Meatloaf). ”
Why the bad grace?
Matthew
Shadowquill and Matthew (Korg)—
I thought it was odd that LV allowed so many teachers to stay on, but he did want wizarding children to be educated, and he probably didn’t have qualified replacements under his thumb (we’ve hardly seen academic brilliance among the DE’s except for Snape) so he needed McGonagall, Flitwick, Sprout, Slughorn, etc.. It also occurred to me that Snape might have convinced LV to allow Hagrid the half-giant to stay not because he was irreplaceable but because Hagrid is arguably the likeliest leaky bucket in the Order (even though I don’t think Snape used him that way, and as Shadowquill pointed out, Snape sent vulnerable students to Hagrid for detention, which protected them since Hagrid wasn’t in the castle where he would be closely watched).
**
Trish-
Thanks for your response, but Dumbledore was clearly going under from the effects of the green potion, and Dumbledore himself told Harry it was a poison, but one that wouldn’t kill him immediately.
Felicity,
I put my take on the Hogwarts professors in post #14 above.
There seem to be some brilliant witches and wizards who are Death Eaters. Bellatrix could hold her own against 3 others! It funny how we (or at least I) think of Molly as being a dowdy/ frumpy housewife (nothing wrong with that) but is actually an amazing fighting Witch! It’s a good message- Molly could be a auror, it seems, but chooses to raise a family of fun and skilled children. Including Head boys and prefects.
Matthew
One of the funniest things in the book was that the ministry workers had to get to work by being flushed down the dunny like turds.
The Ministry has become the sewer of the wizarding world and Thicknesse the biggest stool on the steaming heap.
Matthew
I think Snape’s relationship with Lily was beautiful and he deserves a little more credit. His devotion to her even after she married James and even 16 years after her death isn’t your run-of-the-mill sappy lost-love tale. I interpreted it as a genuinely beautiful but heartwrenching story of not merely unrequited love but also of a lost friendship. Like with most sturdy relationships, there was a very strong side to his feelings that wasn’t simply “romantic” in the high-school-sweetheart way, from what I observed. He genuinely cared about her feelings. He wasn’t in the relationship simply for what he could get out of it.
Harry corrected Voldemort’s assumption that Snape had merely “desired her”. It wasn’t anything of the sort, and I don’t consider Snape’s love to be less powerful than any other character’s may have been. If this were Remus Lupin we were talking about I’m sure it would be more readily accepted.
I just felt like clarifying my thoughts on the subject because lots of my friends thought it was an insufficient revelation about Snape.
Well, after reading all the comments…I still LOVED this book. I do agree that I was disappointed that no one named their kids after Fred at first. However, I am assuming that was a privilege left for George.
I have to say that Snape was never a favorite character of mine until this book. Yes, we had heard about the theory of him loving Lily…But the way she wrote it was perfect. The way he mourned her. The banning of the word mudblood from the portraits in his office. After all that was the final nail in the coffin of his relationship with Lily. Always. That said it all. I loved that he got to look into Lily’s eyes as he died. I didn’t think it was creepy at all. I think Lily did love Snape. The fact that she didn’t love him the way he wanted her to doesn’t mean she didn’t love him. I went back and reread the last half of the book just to reread the Snape portions.
Travis, thanks for the welcome, though I won’t be sticking around. Just a clarification (I think you often have a hard time understanding what I’ve said, but I don’t know why!) I did not say Lily hated Snape and Snape hated Lily! I said Snape hated *James*, who hated him. There is no evidence *in the text* that anyone ever loved Snape, and that includes Lily. He loved her; she did not love him.
And, though I’m sure everyone’s right that Rowling wanted to yank the focus of the books away from Snape back to Harry, for me, she did not succeed.
Of course, I don’t actually believe that Snape’s body was left to rot in the Shack. What I do believe is that it was cruel and disrespectful to the many Snape fans not to mention that he got a funeral. And why was he not in the afterlife scenes? All we would have liked was two or three sentences indicating he got some respect from someone other than Harry. Not tears, not liking – just some respect. Would that have been so hard, given all the fluff Rowling did give us?
There were some wonderful things in these books, even in this one – as I said before. Rowling can write characters her readers find lovable. She is gifted, and this book could have been a classic for the ages. It is not; she fell short because she was rushed and couldn’t be bothered to (1) show some mercy to a character she personally hated, and (2)present a consistent and cohesive morality in her fictional universe. A couple of people on hogpro brought up the Snape/Sidney Carton analogy. It doesn’t work for me, for a couple of reasons. First, Dickens allowed Carton a sacrificial death which actually saved someone else’s life. Rowling refuses to grant Snape that honor. Second, that death actually made the birth of the child named for Carton possible. Again, not so for Snape. I think the naming of the little boy (who, like young Severus, seems like a sweet kid) is meant to show us how good and forgiving *Harry* is. And yes, it was touching, but too little, too late, considering Rowling didn’t even bother to give Snape an afterlife.
Just a question that I cannot figure out. Maybe someone knows the answer. I cannot figure out who’s child Victoire is in the Epilogue. Just want to know for curiousities sake
mary, sorry I misunderstood you!
I think Lily loved Snape; just not in that way. Best friends love each other.
I do think it’s a stretch to say that the book failed to be a classic because she failed to show some mercy to Snape. (I also don’t think it’s fair to say she personally hated him). I think generations who did not take part in the long, 10 year development of Severus Snape will not be reacting the same way Big Time Snape Fans are reacting now. When they see that Harry named his son “Albus Severus,” they’ll know the incredibly value of Snape’s sacrifice. The death itself was not a direct, substitional sacrifice, no. But the entirety of his life’s suffering, including his death, was. Without Snape, Voldemort would have remained alive, and Harry woud not have succeeded.
I think there will be room for lots of discussion on whether or not Rowling’s morality was cohesive and consistent.
jubileespoo— Fleur and Bill’s daughter, oui?
IMO, the “flayed baby” at the Harry/Dumbledore King’s Cross was William Penn and George Fox’s “that which is of God in every man” by way of Quaker theology. The Society of Friends view is that everyone (yah, Hitler, whomever) has a bit of God in them, and the question is whether we are faithful to that “divine spark” and let it burn so brightly in our actions that it shows forth as a Holy Flame, or we let it wither and dwindle. That’s in keeping with Rowling showing that even Voldemort still has a fragment of humanity, or the divine image within his humanity, that is in-between with Harry, and is the grounding for Harry’s remarkable choice to give even Tom Riddle (”you dare?” he says when called by his proper, human name) a final chance to tend the flayed scrap of what God has placed in him, and is waiting to receive home in whatever condition we have raised that imago dei to fulfill. Riddle rejects even that last gift (see the dwarves in “The Last Battle”), but the offer is made, i suspect in Harry’s mind to that sobbing infant-figure under the benches in King’s Cross.
Another thought on the suffering baby:
It was the piece of Voldemort’s soul in Harry that “died” when Voldemort AK’d him.
That’s how Harry was able to say to Riddle, “I’ve seen what you become.” Harry knows the suffering that Voldemort’s soul will go through after death, because he saw a piece of it suffering.
Felicity:
Dumbledore wasn’t going under from just the potion. The curse in his hand was also working on him.
I didn’t say the potion wasn’t poison. It was, just not a deadly poison. It was also meant to weaken the victim to make him easier prey for the inferi.
Travis, thanks for your thoughtful comments. I desperately needed that because the reviews and comments I’ve read in the newspapers have all been very dismissive that far and I don’t think they do the book any justice. I’ve been racing through the book and I guess I’ll have to read it again more carefully before I come to a final conclusion and make up my mind about several issues.
For the most part, I loved the book as well and I believe that Rowling couldn’t possibly meet all the incredibly high expectations, so it’s only natural that some readers would be disappointed.
I loved the way Voldemort outmanoeuvred himself with that wand, the irony of it was just brilliant. I wasn’t so happy with the epilogue, which seemed too much like a fairy tale “and-they-lived-happily-ever-after†ending. But at least we learned that Harry named one of his children after Severus and called him courageous…
Did anyone else think of Matthew 2 and Revelation 12 in Bathilda’s house? Christmas is being rung in and suddenly there is a flashback to Voldemort’s first coming to kill Harry at James and Lily’s house. Voldemort, like the dragon and Herod at the first Christmas, seeks to destroy the child who will bring an end to his kingdom. In the resulting attack he and his angels are cast down and loses his power. The child, however, is delivered and is destined to gain the rod that gives power over all others.
Very much enjoyed reading these initial reactions and comments.
I have mostly positive feelings about DH and how the story ended.
As a devout fan of Snape from Bk1 to Bk7 (I was confident Dumbledore had put him up to that scene in HBP, and that Snape was equally aware of Harry’s presence there albeit under the Invisibility Cloak) I hoped for more recognition following Snape’s sacrifice for all those years, and due respect shown for his ability to dupe Harry, LV, most members of Hogwarts staff and the OotP. He should have been commended on his multiplicity alone!!!
Just my humble opinion.
Another quick couple of thoughts …
Was it Hagrid who was to use magic later in life? During the Battle of Hogwarts?
Where did Cho end up?
The battle to defeat LV was quite localised. Did the likes of Durmstrang and Beauxbatons not feel the need to help a brother school? Wasn’t this a global struggle against evil? Perhaps Charlie could have brought in a few dragons from Romania and we could have been privy to the 12 uses for Dragon’s blood?
I’m certainly not complaining. As I said, I enjoyed reading DH as it confirmed a few theories, and answered many questions.
Thanks you JKR.
The good guys using the unforgivable curses didn’t bother me in the slightest. There were some people like Bellatrix that I would just love to cast the curse on. That woman really boiled my blood! Ever since she killed Sirius I have had a strong loathing of her. Way to go Molly! She really put Bella in her place! “NOT MY DAUGHTER YOU B**CH!” Ha ha!
Sometimes I was so enthralled in the book, that I just wanted to jump in the story and cast dozens of “Forgivable” curses. I call them forgivable when you use them in a war.
I hate Bellatrix, but in a way I sort of love her interesting character. I think they picked the perfect actor to play her in the movie. I love Helena Carter.
I am glad Draco lived, he was just pitiful with the way he was born into a Death Eater family. You can tell his parents really love him and I think they were so tied in with Voldemort that there best bet was to stick with him till the end and hope that he would lay mercy upon them until Harry defeated the Dark lord.
I have always liked Draco and Snape the whole time and every time a new book came out I said as long as the trio and my two favorite Slytheren make it, I’ll be happy. I always trusted Dumbledore’s faith in Snape. I just hate that Snape died. That is the only part I really hated about the book. The rest was great. Although there was way too much romance with Ginny for my taste, but I guess it was needed for the Potter family line to continue. I also noticed that things seemed to fall into place to easily but the purse that Hermione had was just hilarious to me! I can’t wait to see Emma Watson with her arm shoulder deep in there. I think it will look funny on the big screen and I think that J.K.R. was going for a little humor in such a war-stricken story.
In our own imagination though I am sure that we are all writing our own endings to the story and rearranging the parts we hated. That is what I like about reading, imagining what you wish had happened. Dumbledore said it better than anyone… Just because it is in your mind, doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
I’ve been working on writing my own story for over ten years now and I only hope I will be satisfied like J.K.R.
And didn’t you just love Peeves little Victory Song? Voldy’s gone Moldy! Didn’t I read a chat somewhere when J.K.R. said something about the fans calling Voldemort Voldy? Maybe that’s where she got the idea.
Anyway… at least my little cousins won’t have to be afraid of saying Voldemort anymore! They even got me saying Who-Know-Who out of habit!
Let it be known that the world can now say Voldemort without looking around nervously! And yes, I am a bit nutty, or “mental” as Ron would say!
One quick comment re: the question about the importance of S.P.E.W. and it being an unresolved plot point…
Elf rights are what finally got Ron and Hermione to kiss. So that’s pretty important right there.
What was snape talking about when he said “always” to dumbledore. always what…
In that scene they were talking about Snapes love for Lilly, so when he cast his patronus it is the shape of a doe, which is the same as lilly’s. When dumbledore sees it he says “still?” meaning literally “you still love Lilly?” and Snapes reply was “always”
Thanks dave
I don’t share Mary’s visceral dislike of the books at all. I love the book, and the majority of it worked very well; some of it worked brilliantly. There are subtleties in Rowling’s writing that are incredibly deft.
But to address a point about “plot holes” and whether disappointments expressed here are a function of our expectations as opposed to requirements of Rowling–
Travis, I disagree with your point that we’re paying too much attention to Rowling’s comments before book 7’s release (and don’t think I’m not laughing my head off at this after our discussions of poststructuralism and authorial intention!). To my mind, Rowling clearly laid some groundrules about the importance of characters and actions in her interviews and these books. In the cases of things like House Unification and Harry’s moral nature, she bent her rules, sometimes rather sharply. But I can accept these as open ended questions designed to invite reader interpretation.
In the cases of the Unforgiveables and Snape’s role, I think she flatly broke those rules. The quote mentioned above by Rowling about Snape’s fan following is telling to me. She’s suprised at how much people “like” Snape, not at how much “importance” people have placed on him. I wouldn’t call myself a Snape “fan” by any stretch of the imagination. He is loathesome in far too many key respects. But the “importance” of Snape is firmly established for 6 3/4 books. He is as demonized as any character in the series for Harry, second only to Voldemort. It’s possible to argue that Harry’s dislike of Snape is more personal than that of Voldemort. And let’s not forget, the end of HBP firmly establishes Snape’s guilt to every character in the books, and it’s not even questioned throughout DH until “The Prince’s Tale”.
What bothers me is that Rowling has shown such deftness for allowing these kinds of plot points — emotional, visceral, thematically significant — to *unfold* so patiently, in some cases over the course of thousands of pages: Harry and Dumbledore’s relationship, Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, and Neville. But “The Prince’s Tale” is so abrupt, and Harry’s emotional transformation so sudden, that I’d think it were written by a different author if I didn’t know better. My initial reaction was that Voldemort’s proffered one hour cease-fire was written in for the sake of tying up this one loose end (why on Earth would Voldemort allow one hour for the Order to regroup, refit, rearm, and possibly reinforce after he’s seized the advantage?).
To me, this is the central flaw in the book. It’s certainly not a killer in that it destroys the central message of the entire series, or even book 7. But it’s certainly much more than simply us worrying about what we wanted to happen as opposed to what Rowling wanted/needed to write.
Fellow Dave,
I agree with you that the revelation of Snapes true character was sudden short lived, to say the least. But when you think about the overall events that were taking place throughout Hallows, how else could it have happened?
Rowling hints that Snape’s character is ultimately good midway through the book durring the scene where Harry finds out that Ginny and Neville were trying to disrupt the school and steal back the sword of gryffindor. In this scene we see that Snape’s punishment to Ginny and them, obvious supporters of Harry and his cause, is to simply go into the Forbidden Forest with Hagrid, something we have seen that really isnt all to dificult and for them might seem fun, as shown in the first few books. When I first read that the first conclusion that I came to was that Snape must be ultimately good. Otherwise he would have made the punishment absolutely brutal leaning more towards the cruelty of the Callows.
So here we see that Rowling is showing the true nature of Snape, but it is also his vital role that he stay neer Voldemort to follow his every action. With this being the case Snape never had a chance to see Harry and pass on the vital information that was given to him by Dumbledore. This is why we see Snape begging Lord Voldemort to let him find Harry durring the battle.
On a side note, but reffering to your comment, the hour break Voldemort gives the Order, in my opinion, is an absolutely brilliant move because it is a direct message to Harry. In that moment he basically gave Harry an ultimatum, come and face me or I will kill everyone that you love. The castle was surrounded and there is no way reinforcements were going to be comming any time in the near future. Anyone who was going to be able to fight was inside that castle, and Voldemort knew that with one final surge he would win. But like he says to Neville after supposedly killing Harry, it is a waste of magical talent and pure blood. So he gives Harry the opportunity to stop letting his friends die, and come to him, which is beneficial on 2 levels. 1: Harry will come alone, meaning its a battle of magical skill where Voldemort is the clear winner, 2: Harry does not get a chance to hide or runaway, or think of some other way to defeat voldemort, in Harrys mind, at this point it is now or never.
But back to Snape, with all these circumstances in place there is no opportunity for Snape to meet with Harry, convince him he is good, tell him what has to happen, and still make Voldemort think he is a loyal death eater. With Harry as the most wanted man in the wizarding world it physically want possible for this revelation to come in any other way then through the Pensive, and as the Order begins to fade in the battle of hogwarts it was clear, at least to me, that something drastic had to happen, and quick, for harry to learn what Snape knew.
Jo’s scene filled this slot nicely and clearly tied up “most” ends that came with that part of the story line. Yes, it was a very sudden and drastic change in the emotional state of Harry, but war has a tendency to have these effects in the real world. Add magic to that and there was no telling what scenario could have happened. Either way I think she did a great job on the novel, especialy towards the end of the book, and I couldnt see her having written it any other way, though I am greatly awaiting the encyclopedia to satisfy my interest in some of the back stories.
What’s up with the sword?!
Goblin runs off with it…
…Neville turns up with it in a flash of “deus ex machina” rescue.
How did they recover the sword?
Ed, yeah…I scratched my head over that one, too. I passed it off as a simple plot goof, though.
Didn’t Neville pull the sword out of the Sorting Hat, just like Harry did in Chamber of Secrets?
My best rationalization of it (and I hope that this doesn’t come back to me through the fora as an answer to my own question) is that it wasn’t the true sword at all, though it is clearly identified in the closing chapters as sitting beside Neville.
There was mention of uncertainty from Dumbledore surrounding the unknown ramifications of having a “living” horcrux, i.e. the snake. Perhaps no “darkly” enchanted weapon was necessary to destroy a living horcrux (The “replica” need only have been simply a “random sword”). To lend some credence to the theory, Voldemort would have little need of a protection spell on his pet if the contrary were true.
Have you heard any comment on the note?
Like Gaines wrote, I think Neville drew the sword out of the Sorting Hat. But I haven’t got my copy to look it up.
And it makes sense that Neville could do that. After Harry used the sword to kill the Basilisk, Dumbledore told him that “only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat.” In Book 7, Neville has become a “true Gryffindor,” showing courage by leading the DA and resisting the new regime at Hogwarts, as well as receiving a direct charge from Harry to kill the snake. The Sorting Hat responds by conjuring the sword for Neville exactly when he needs it.
Gaines, exactly, that’s how I interpreted the scene. Neville was a true Gryffindor.
I’m a moron…just reread it. hmmmf. …must have missed that bit.
Great Book! to all you nay-sayers.
Self-Flattery:
TOTALLY knew…Dumbledore’s plea to Snape in Book 6 was to spare Draco’s innocence and thus Snape was compelled to kill Dumbledore…maybe not a “good-guy”, but certainly in keeping with his persona in the books. We can’t have TOO many reversals can we?
Just a ‘brief’ rebuttal to some of the comments above…
Curious it is to me to read so many overtly Christian interpretations of Harry, the Hallows, and King’s Cross above, not to deny their potential veracity (one can only assume JKR had perhaps a MORE Christian upbringing than an average American would understand), the idea that her interpretations could bleed onto the page cannot be debated. I could suppose I would not try, but at any rate, I took things differently…
I took the King’s Cross scene to be simply one of those inexplicable “near death” moments, moments of undeniable clarity, for the “sum” of any series is never known until “that little line is drawn” and one confidently scribbles the total, i.e. the incredible, seemingly “miraculous” revelations contained in the chapter.
Moreover, it is clearly stated throughout the chapter that Harry is not dead at all. This is not “Heaven”, “Hell”, or “Purgatory”. …and Harry is not Jesus.
I disagree with those above who say that a “willingness” to sacrifice is not a “sacrifice”, and that, according to that line of thought, Harry’s “Jesus-ness” is flawed, making for a “bad book”. On the contrary, a “willingness” to sacrifice oneself is paramount. Otherwise, you’re just dead, no martyr here.
The brilliance of the whole series, as has been stated by the author others, and I agree, is that Everyone, EVERYONE, was prepared for the death of our hero. Sorry if he’s not your Jesus and dead for the sin’s of the wizarding world.
We ALL had questions on the nature of the bond between Harry and Voldemort and their ramifications. The reversal was apt and heady (that Voldemort himself had kept Harry alive in the second to last ‘duel’).
Though the sale and printing of the book I’m sure will one day rival it, folks…
…this wasn’t the Bible.
Wasn’t it your lot who had the book(s) banned in countless school libraries?!
there are a couple of things that i may have passed over in my excitement of the book, yet i am still confused about.
1. i thought the goblin took the sword in the bank. how did longbottom have it at the end of the book to kill nagini? i thought that ron and hermonie grabbed the basilisk fangs because they had no sword?
2. how did the elder wand choose draco? it was snape that killed dumbeldore so wouldnt the wand be his?
maybe i just overlooked a few things, but i would much appreciate it being cleared up by anyone who has some insight for me!
thanks, kate
Would this guy, Ed, EVER shut up?…
Anybody really in the know, really in the circle, PLEASE honor my humble little request…
Film the 6th and 7th years simultaneously, and release them on the heals of one another. Please consider 1) Harry used to grace the screen annually, to everyone’s immense satisfaction. 2) Marketing successes of other franchises, e.g. the Matrix which release the final two chapters in the same calendar year. 3) Uncharacteristically, the substance of Book 7 falls quite in line with the end of Book 6. Although time has clearly past, the transition (Book 7) very quickly returns to the concerns issued at the end of Book 6. It’s like “Starwars (IV)” in its whole as compared to “Empire” and “Return of the Jedi”.
Second request: 7th year (if not 6th as well) should come back to us rated “R”…magnificently poetic when one considers that Hogwart’s wizards come of age at 17. I just don’t see any way to tell the 7th book correctly without the requisite carnage.
OK…seriously…I’m done.
Kate…
As you can see, I had the same confusion…
I went back and read…the sword, in fact, appeared out of the sorting hat (Chamber), the one random thing that Voldemort decided to summon out of the castle during his bad guy monologue…hmmf.
Draco had “bested” Dumbledore (i.e. “won” the wand), who was distracted, petrifying Harry for his protection in the tower (Book 6). Harry bested Draco at the Malfoy’s.
Until the final confrontation with Voldemort, none of the “good guys” but Harry, Ron & Hermione knew Snape was dead, where his body was, and only Harry knew Snape had really been on their side (he was alone with Snape’s memories in the Pensieve). When confronting Voldemort, Harry shares with him (and everyone watching) that Snape was not a loyal Death Eater. Then, after Voldemort is dead, Harry is unable to escape the crush of people who was to get close to him and celebrate the victory over Voldemort and his Death Eaters. When Harry, with Luna’s assistance, does manage to get away, Ron and Hermione go with him. He is then able to tell them about Snape, and then gets the advice he needs from Dumbledore’s portrait about what to do about the Hallows. Since this is where “present day” ends, I imagine that they would then have retrieved Snape’s body, and he along with the others who were lost, would have recieved the honors they earned through their service in the fight against evil incarnate. I’d also imagine that the real story would also get out to the rest of the Wizarding World, through the Lovegoods and The Quibbler, if nothing else. Severus would get the respect he deserved.
And, as others have said, Lily did love Severus, but not in the way he would have wished. They had known each other and been friends for what? Seven years? when the break finally came. Lily wouldn’t have been his friend to begin with if she hadn’t seen good in him.
Until the final confrontation with Voldemort, none of the “good guys†but Harry, Ron & Hermione knew Snape was dead, where his body was, and only Harry knew Snape had really been on their side (he was alone with Snape’s memories in the Pensieve)
Yes, and after Dumbledore’s death nobody but Snape knew what side Snape really was on. That must have been a tremendous burden.
I really liked how Harry felt safe when the Patronus was around and how it assured the three of them that somebody was on their side.
It was also comforting that Snape looked into Harry’s/ Lily’s eyes in the final moment of his life. I think if he could have made one last wish, this would have been it. It was almost like Harry walking to his death with his loved ones. He wasn’t alone. I found that so much more emotionally satisfying than a description of an honourable funeral.
With few words Rowling pretty much said it all, it was perfectly done.
About the sword, it is obvious that, being a magical object, it came by itself into the sorting hat when it was needed, just as it had done when harry needed it in the chamber of secrets.
Hi you folks, I am a christian, but I think all these references to Jesus are a bit exaggerated. This is a fiction novel, not the bible.
taterli, right, it’s fiction, not the Bible. But it does use Christian themes, symbolism, and Christ-figures, which is frequently done in fictional literature.
Fantastic book and wonderful, thought provoking comments! Thank you all and special thanks to you Travis, for creating the “Sword of Gryffindor.â€
Right from the start, Rowling has acknowledged the pain of her mother’s death and how it influenced her writing. Through all the HP books, mothers or surrogates have figured prominently and while I don’t believe Rowling’s overarching theme is the importance of motherly love, she regularly revisits the power or the mother/child relationship. I’m even willing to suggest that Rowling’s characters are shaped for better or worse by the relationship they had with their mother.
On the good relationship side there’s Lilly Potter, Molly Weasley, Professor McGonagall, Kendra Dumbledore even Narcissa Malfoy. All of these mothers and surrogate mothers are strong women, willing to sacrifice themselves for their child. Lilly is obvious and Molly battled Bellatrix to save Ginny. As surrogates to Harry, both Molly and Professor McGonagall repeatedly supported, defended and protected him, as well as fought on his behalf. Even as a Death Eater, Narcissa Malfoy is consumed with worry for Draco, attempting to manipulate people and situations on his behalf and also willing to sacrifice herself for her son. It might even be argued that her love for Draco helps Harry defeat Voldemort. Finally, Kendra Dumbledore’s care, protection and ultimate sacrifice for Ariana helped shape Dumbledore’s character.
On the other hand, both Snape and Tom Riddle had weak, down trodden mothers; Snape growing up in an unhappy home and Tom in an orphanage.
Finally – and this one is a stretch – Rowling starts “The Deathly Hallows†by including several lines from the Greek play, “The Libation Bearer.†In this Greek tragedy, Orestes, son of Agamemnon, returns home to avenge his father’s death at the hands of his mother and her lover. Orestes commits matricide and ultimately goes mad. While the play addresses the bigger issue of revenge, it’s interesting that Rowling chose a play with a self-absorbed mother. (As I said – a stretch.)
Any thoughts?
Can I say, that according to what happens in the book, Snape is NOT good?
May I point out that all the good that Snape did was explained in the book as his love/obsession with Lily??
May I point out that the motivating factor for going over to the “good” side, for working for the Order, for betraying Voldemort, was because of a selfish love for ONE person?
Unlike Harry, who doesn’t want innocent blood to be spilled, who truly cares about others wellbeing, Snape seems to by doing all of this because of his guilt over the death of his beloved Lily?
What makes a person good? Is it their actions, or their motivation? Does Snape working for the Order make him a “good” guy? I would think not. This “bravery” displayed by him has been displayed by countless real life villains. The dictators, the serial killers, the sadists etc. all have someone who they love, who they would go beyond all bounds in order to protect them. Does this make them good? I think not.
Similarly, I think Snape, like the most evil people, are simply self absorbed. This is the worst evil, those who do not care for others who are not their friends or family. Does Narcissa lying to Voldemort at the end about Harry being dead make her a “good” person? Does this make her brave?
No, it does not. She does what she does for selfish reasons, as does Snape. In my eyes, he is no hero.
Daryl, true, Snape did it all because he loved Lily. But his love wasn’t selfish, otherwise he wouldn’t have done good for her sake. So it wasn’t just about him but about the person he loved. I believe, what people do matters, even if it’s not for the most noble and altruistic reasons. And I wouldn’t call a person evil who has done good for so many years.
In my opinion, nobody who is “most evil†would have done what he did and not even many of the “good†ones. Of course, he wasn’t as selfless as Harry, but Harry was exceptional. He was better than Snape, even better than Dumbledore, certainly better than myself. He was really special.
I still think that Snape was NOT a good person. All of the prejudices that he had as a death eater, he never truly changed. Yes, he did good things, but those were only because of the guilt he felt over Lilys death, and NOT because he actually wanted to do good. He was still the old Snape, still just like many of the other Death Eaters, only he had a stronger motivation.
So we can at least agree that he did good things, even heroic things.
And someone who does good things, and even heroic things is a – ?
Boggart,
About the person who came to magic late in life. JKR did an online interview the other day (see Mugglenet.com for transcript) and was asked that question. Her answer was along the lines of “Sorry! I changed my mind.”
Doug (post #37)
You said: “All that may be true, but the charge against Albus, both as a teenager and as an adult, was not that he was a bad person. It was that he was tempted by power, and was far too willing to use others to further “the greater goodâ€.
“Harry would have consented, had he known the truth – he really was willing to die to defeat Voldemort. But Albus never bothered to tell him the truth in any of their heart-to-heart chats. Instead that was left as yet one more unpleasant task on Snape’s plate, to be done only at the last possible moment.”
I think the reason Dubledore didn’t tell Harry can be paralleled in Scripture. On the Cross, there is a moment when Christ is in despair and cries out “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.” (or left me in my time of need. I believe God withdrew his spirit and support of Christ in this very trying time so that Christ could make a conscious decision to fulfill his mission to the bitter end. He CHOSE to give up the ghost. I think Harry had to do the same thing. He needed to CHOOSE to sacrifice himself to Lord Thingy without the hope of coming back. This makes his sacrifice complete. It is this willingness to die for others with no thought for himself that seals the protection on the rest of the wizarding world.
hey,
About snape:
I don’t think Lily’s love was the one thing that drove him to heroic actions.
We should interpret his love for lily more like what made him come to his senses.
It’s like: making fun of a someone and afterwards learning that it’s realy a nice person. You don’t stop making fun of people afterwards because you liked the other one and felt sorry for the pain you’ve put them trough, But because you see now that it was wrong. your liking of the person drove you to the conclusion.
Snape did not just desire Lily, he realy cared about her. Unlike LV Snape was able to love, to love deeply and that makes him good to me, to be able to care about another than yourself is not evil or selfish. He stil loved lily while she did not return his love, he wanted her to live hapily with another man and their baby (and not be killed by LV) even when they had not spoken for years and he knew for sure they would not be together. HE cared that she’d be happy.
That doesn’t seems Selfish to me!
And for one thing; JKR makes it clear to me by telling us that you can ‘regrow’ your soul after making a horcrux by feeling remorse, that when you really feel the pain of what you’ve done you can become whole again.
Snape’s love for Lily made him feel (when LV thought the profecy meant Harry and when she was dead) what he was causing other people to feel (by doing evil when he was e DE).
And i’m sure Dumbledore took his time to sit with snape and talk about what he’d done.
You can be sure that snape did not act for the right reasons in the beginning but i would not say that that’s still true during the events of the series.
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1. each one of us wants to end DH our own way. some wants to have a detailed account of what happened to characters – their work, kids, marriage, etc. but as far as the thread or leitmotif of the HP story is concerned, its USUALLY seen from harry’s perspective (except for a few chapters). and the epilogue shows what harry values most, his love for his family.
2. about severus’ love for lily, all i can say is this to those who are dissatisfied: have you ever really loved somebody? if you have, then you would understand snape’s choices.
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I look forward to sharing and exchanging information with everyone!
I have been watching the forum for a while and I just decided to join and participate!
See ya…
Welcome!
It’ll be great to have your input.
This topic has a bit of age about and it would be excellent to start commenting on some of the more recent posts. That’s generally where the action is.
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