Debating Abanes, Part Three

Debating Abanes, Part One
Debating Abanes, Part Two

Here is the next section of the short discussion between myself and Richard Abanes on the Harry Potter novels. In this, we get into issues such as whether or not JK Rowling’s profession of Christianity is specific or generic and whether or not John Granger is playing fast-and-loose with JKR’s materials. Since our exchange got rather lengthy, I’ll post here only the next two exchanges. Look for the final installment of the discussion later in the week, and I’ll post an analysis of the issues raised early next week.

Just for the sake of clarity, note that the text in blockquotes is where Richard and I quote each other in order to respond to this or that specific statement.

Enjoy!

Travis‘ Comment on September 26, 2005 @ 7:54 pm:

Richard wrote,

The interview only says she believes in “God”— what God? how is “God” defined? All kinds of people say they believe in “God.”

Let’s get the details of the interview correct. Wyman asked if she was a Christian. She said, “Yes I am.” That’s more than a generic belief in “God.”

and flaunted an adulterous relationship with a married man for a year before marrying him once his divorce came through. Hmmm.

I really don’t want to get into a “whoever sins the least is the most genuine Christian” type of discussion here. I tend to be optimistic towards folks who profess faith in Christ, despite their flaws. Others tend to be more pessimistic, wanting proof.

Well, we just disagree there. I think Granger started out wanting to make HP okay for Christians.

To think this, you have to blatantly disregard what Granger has said. He did not start out that way whatsoever.

I think, if I may say so, you just raised a straw man. i said that she was fascinated with it and enjoyed it—the way anyone might find astronomy, religion, or philosophy fascinating and interesting. As a result, she incorporated a great deal of material she read and knows. Other authors do the same thing

But if she’s employing certain seemingly religious things in a Christian context, it’s not necessarily occult influence. For example, I’m reading Pyle’s King Arthur stories now, and Merlin, a sorcerer, is being employed to teach obviously Christian morals. So even if she IS fascinated by the “occult” (which I do doubt based on what I have read her say), that’s not enough to prove she’s promoting it (which she has flatly denied).

Just because she loves Dickens and Austen does not make HP Christian.

That wasn’t my argument, though it must indeed be noted that much of English literature is traditionally Christian. My point in citing those was to argue out our previous discussion, whether Rowling’s books are to be read in the context of the Great Books. You previously said Granger invented that idea. I pointed out that he did not, and you switched the discussion to whether or not the books are Christian. I know we’re getting into a lot of stuff at once now, but let’s try to stay on task and not use the proverbial red herring.

well, the problem is that I quote multiple sources—he does not even quote Rowling very often. And if he does, it is not accurately interpreted.

Lots of things to consider here. First, Granger quotes the books all the time; this is quoting Rowling. Second, in my interaction with him and reading his stuff at Hogwarts Professor, he does indeed quote Rowling. Third, there is no higher priority in JKR’s mind than protecting her story. This is why the references to her faith are vague, and she says that quite clearly in the interview cited above. You may think this priority is out of whack, but it’s the case with her nevertheless.

Her desire to protect the story means this, in my opinion: That she is going to dodge any question that might reveal too much. That means that her interviews will not be altogether trustworthy, and while important, sticking to the actual text of the books when evaluating HP is far more valuable than her interviews.

Well, you read the quotes and explanations I have from Rowling. And also read how society (INCLUDING pagans. wiccans, and occultists) are responding.

I’ll get to your book when I have the money, as I said. As for how society is responding, there is absolutely no credible evidence for any connection between HP and a rise in occult practice (if there even is a rise, which has been statistically disputed).

Richard’s Comment on September 27, 2005 @ 4:47 pm:

Travis wrote,

Let’s get the details of the interview correct. Wyman asked if she was a Christian. She said, “Yes I am.” That’s more than a generic belief in “God.”

The term Christian has been so overused that is some senses it has become almost meaningless without clarification. David Koresh said he was a Christian. members of pseudo-Christian cults all call themselves Christians. People often call themselves Christians sometimes if they simply go to a church once in a while, if they are not Hindu or Muslim or Buddhist. Some people say they are “Christian” if they simply live a good life and believe Jesus was a good example. I discuss at length the state of “the church” ion England and what being “a Christian” usually means in that country. Even Christ said that many people will on the last day say “Lord Lord” but he will say he never actually knew them. Hmmm. Interesting.

I really don’t want to get into a “whoever sins the least is the most
genuine Christian” type of discussion here.

Please, that is not what I am saying AT ALL. Goodness. I am only saying that the life of a true “Christian” should at the very least be marked by not living in a publicly flaunted adulterous relationship. I am not talking about some error of the moment, basic sin (which we all do everyday), but rather, a blatant, unrepentant, uncaring, ongoing state of serious sin. She has only said that she believes in “God” (undefined) and that she is a “Christian” (undefined) and then displays conduct in her life that is hardly consistent with a profession of true faith in Christ (compare her lifestyle and advocating of things like “revenge” with the kind of life and attitudes presented by Lewis and Tolkien).

tend to be optimistic towards folks who profess faith in Christ, despite their flaws. Others tend to be more pessimistic, wanting proof.

optimistic is one thing, but lifestyle, actions, and words that seem utterly inconsistent with a true faith is another thing. Even the Bible talks about those who say they are in Christ, but lice contrary to the faith.

To think this, you have to blatantly disregard what Granger has said.
He did not start out that way whatsoever.

Very well. I will retract my initial statement, and instead, theorize that he was at some point gripped with either: a) an overriding desire to make the books safe for Christians; or b) a kind of over-excitement about various symbols he found familiar and imparted to them an unwarranted level of importance.

But if she’s employing certain seemingly religious things in a Christian context, it’s not necessarily occult influence.

ahhhhhhh, but who says she is employing ANYTHING in a “Christian context.” THAT is where Granger is making his own assumption contrary to any real evidence. The whole backdrop of the story and its context is
magick, witchcraft, and wizardry. Now, the issue involves the application of real-world practices, rather than primarily invented/imaginary “magic.” Several books BY FANS have catalogued the real-world occult practices, lore, and personalities in HP. Granted, SOME symbols (relatively few) might also have been used within Christian history, but this is hardly reason to call the books “Christian” in the same vein as works by Lewis and Tolkien.

For example, I’m reading Pyle’s King Arthur stories now, and Merlin, a sorcerer, is being employed to teach obviously Christian morals. So even if she IS fascinated by the “occult” (which I do doubt based on what I have read her say), that’s not enough to prove she’s promoting it (which she has flatly denied).

ahhhhh, wait wait wait. Another strawman. I NEVER said she is deliberately promoting it. In fact, I state the very opposite. She certainly has no intentions of promoting anything. She just wrote a series of fun books that she laced with the stuff she found interesting.

Granger quotes the books all the time;

So do others. But he rarely quotes the full body of her interviews wherein she actually explains her inspiration for and meanings behind various symbols and names that Granger uses. But Granger ignores these in favor of his own interpretations and meanings.

in my interaction with him and reading his stuff at Hogwarts Professor, he does indeed quote Rowling.

selectively, very selectively.

Third, there is no higher priority in JKR’s mind than protecting her story. This is why the references to her faith are vague, and she says that quite clearly in the interview cited above. You may think this priority is out of whack, but it’s the case with her nevertheless.

This is an interesting argument. Are you really saying that someone with a true, deep, and abiding faith in Christ (like Lewis and Tolkien) is not going to express her faith to the world for the sake of a storyline??!!! Goodness, think about that. Moreover, I have no doubt she may pull some kind of resurrection in the story, but goodness, how many other stories have done that too??? Such an element hardly makes every story like it Christian. Nothing she could say about her faith would ruin anything—and is hiding your faith really something that someone would do to protect a story.

Her desire to protect the story means this, in my opinion: That she is going to dodge any question that might reveal too much. That means that her interviews will not be altogether trustworthy, and while important, sticking to the actual text of the books when evaluating HP is far more valuable than her interviews.

Well, if you want to just stick to the text of the book, then we have even less to go on—i..e, nothing but mere symbols that can be arbitrarily interpreted in a WIDE variety of ways (see my list of groups that claim the HP symbols represent their views).

I’ll get to your book when I have the money, as I said. As for how society is responding, there is absolutely no credible evidence for any connection between HP and a rise in occult practice (if there even is a rise, which has been statistically disputed).

Actually, there is indeed evidence that the books are causing kids to be more interested in occultism; evidence that kids are copying other aspects of HP books; and evidence that real-world wiccans/neopagans/occultists are using the popularity of HP to lure young readers to their books that exalt/teach real magick/witchcraft (see my book).

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Look for the fourth and final exchange later in the week!