Early in this chapter comes a line you know Rowling had a double meaning for in her own mind:
Hermione: “Well, can’t you find something useful to occupy yourself?”
Ron, sarcastically: “What, like reading kids’ stories?”
I’m guessing almost everyone reading this knows someone who thinks reading Harry Potter is a waste of time.
Potter’s Politics: Hogwarts Takeover
In any case, this chapter has many fascinating tidbits. Lupin shows up and fills the trio in on the goings-on in the Wizarding World, now under control of Voldemort. There are great little items like this for those of us who have argued for a libertarian reading of the series:
“Attendance is now compulsory for every young witch and wizard,” he replied. “That was announced yesterday. It’s a change, because it was never obligatory before.
Libertarian reading or not, it’s interesting that one of the first move Voldemort makes is to take over education. The purpose is twofold:
Voldemort will have the whole Wizarding population under his eye from a young age. And it’s also another way of weeding out Muggle-borns, because students must be given Blood Status – meaning that they have proven to the Ministry that they are of Wizard descent – before they are allowed to attend.
If I can wax political for a moment – a government than wants to raise, as Adam Troy Castro calls them, “obedient little functionaries” will be sure to get involved in every aspect of education as possible and make sure every young person is required to be there. This also allows Voldemort to finish the work he had always intended with the Chamber of Secrets and the basilisk: to create a Hogwarts after Salazar Slytherin’s image and purposes.
Lupin, Coward?
Then, of course, there’s the confrontation with Lupin. There are many readings of this; I’ll give you mine. I’m a big fan of Harry in this scene. This line in particular strikes me: “I’d never have believed this,” Harry said. “The man who taught me to fight dementors – a coward.”
It’s a great line, because he’s calling a man who’s ready to join Harry in his fight against Voldemort himself a “coward.” Why? Because he’s abandoning his pregnant wife and unborn baby. As a daddy, it’s a touching moment for me, and I find myself very much on Harry’s side and getting just as riled up as he. Harry regrets it later, and I would have, too. Lupin, with all his time spent among the werewolves, was not a coward. But Harry was also right that calling him such (because he was acting like one) pushed him to go back to Tonks.
Dung Returns
After getting a bit more of Rita Skeeter’s spin on the Dumbledores, perpetuating the lie that Ariana was a Squib, Kreacher finally returns with Dung. Another of my favorite lines from this book: “Perhaps just one more, Master Harry, for luck?” And after Kreacher’s attacks on Mundungus and stopped, and the questioning resumes, we get the action of the coming chapters set up for us: Delores Umbridge as the locket Horcrux.
Jonathan on 
korg20000bc on 
Arabella Figg on 
revgeorge on 
Red Rocker on 
Dave the Longwinded on 
Fricka on 
Loading ...
{ 77 comments… read them below or add one }
Lessons on how to be a father and a husband from a 17 year old who’s never been either? Yeah, I realize that you don’t have to be a chicken to recognize an egg, but Harry is not qualified to pass judgement on someone who’s facing life choices he himself has not had to face. In my opinion, he’s just plain rude, as adolescents can be rude because they are often controlled by their feelings and blurt out things which they later come to regret.
However, if I tried to guess the author’s intent, I’d say JKR was thinking along the same lines as Travis, that is to say she was using Harry to make a statement about immature men who find it easier to go off to war than to stay at home and take care of their parental responsibilities. Can’t blame the author for wanting to express her opinion. Can blame her for doing it in an awkward way which really seems contradictory to the storyline. I mean, Lupin does eventually get killed in battle – as he has been fated to be ever since Arthur Weasley got the immunity totem in OotP. So why jerk him around by sending him home in Chapter 11 when he’s just going to have to come back and get killed in Chapter 33?
I do like what she does with Voldemort’s policy changes at Hogwarts, however. The abuse of the education process is also one of JKR’s pet peeves, but I think she handles that one much more convincingly than the subject of absentee fathers.
Usually, I’d agree with that criticism – that the 17-year-old kid doesn’t have a right to criticize. But I think Harry’s in a slightly different position than your standard 17-year-old:
When you’re still alive because your parents stayed with you instead of going to a war that they were passionate about, you’re at least not your typical teenage hot-head when you’re talking about daddies staying with their kids.
Yes, I love that line from Kreacher about “one more for luck.”
Lupin is one of my favorite characters, and this storyline really adds to that. This is the first time that Harry sees the shadow of the wolf on Lupin’s human face. As I recall, Grayback never loses his wolfish features. I certainly agree Harry was right to question Lupin’s motives. It would be one thing if Lupin had discussed this with Tonks (which it sounds like he hasn’t), but even so Harry has a right to ask and to criticize Lupin’s choices. Had Lupin remained levelheaded and adamant, should Harry have then allowed Lupin to come along despite him thinking Lupin made the wrong choice? I don’t know, but Lupin didn’t respond that way.
Looking at the episode from another perspective, we know that Lupin wasn’t going to be “allowed” to come with the trio. We know this because it’s been the trio since the start; more so than anyone else, they are the chief protagonists. So the outcome of Lupin’s offer is already known. The question then becomes: why have him ask? Is it to show that the adults aren’t totally dim and that some of them do realize the kids are about to go on an extremely dangerous mission? Perhaps. Is it to allow JKR to make her point about absentee fathers and husbands? Even more likely still.
My point is that the whole episode is a set up with a foregone outcome and for an ulterior purpose. It’s not honest writing.
Why have him ask? Maybe it was as much about Harry as Lupin. All his other adult mentors have been stripped from him–here’s one who is alive and willing to help. Sure the trio are going to have to “go it alone”, but this way it’s a choice Harry makes.
And even if he is blurting out his opinion in a rude, adolescent way it doesn’t mean that what he has to say doesn’t need to be said. Lupin has a place to be right now–protecting and supporting his wife and his child-t0-be. Maybe that’s scary or mundane or whatever, but he should take a lesson from Sirius’ fate and be where he supposed to be at this moment.
I agree with Beth that it’s probably more about Harry than about Lupin, but its also a general statement from JKR about the priority of good parenting.
This is jumping ahead in the story, but I wondered, at first reading, why Molly was the one to finish off Bellatrix, when so many of us were expecting Neville to get his revenge. The contrast between Molly and Bellatrix is between the good, protective mother (sometimes over-protective) and the Bellatrix who declared “I would gladly give up my children in service to the Dark Lord.” The good parents are consistently portrayed as the winners in JKR’s universe.
I have a different take on Lupin in this scene.
JKR’s made it clear that there are problems he faces because of his Were-wolf status. One of those is that he feels unworthy to accept love–not the kind of male friend bonding that he got from the Marauders, but the more intimate kind that he might get from a mate. He was reluctant to take on Tonks for that reason. Now, he’s serving as a double agent with other Werewolves , who are being led by Fenrir Greyback, the one who bit him and turned him into a Werewolf in the first place. They mistrust him because of his wizard capactity(re:wand). Being constantly in their company must cause him great anxiety that he is becoming more and more animal, and less human. He also does not have access to Snape’s Wolfsbane Potion, so he may very well feel as though he poses a great potential danger to his wife and infant son.
I also suspect he may feel guilt over the death of Sirius, thinking that he could have headed Sirius off and prevented his going to the MOM.
Now that Sirius is gone, Remus is the last of the Marauders who are fighting Voldemort, and that may also weigh heavily on his mind. To his way of thinking, his obligation to James Potter and his son Harry may even supersede his loyalty to his own wife and child(especially if he feels being around them is dangerous for them). On top of that, the leader of the Underground Resistance Movement that he is following has been murdered, so there may not be the clear leadership there that he can turn to. Like Harry, he’s been left rather adrift. So I did not see his turning up and offering to help the trio in the same way that other posters have. He’s got several quandaries about which direction to follow, and I think it’s necessary for him to get that rebuff from Harry to clear his mind and make him see reality, that his place is with Tonks and little Teddy. Rather than seeing this as dishonest writing by JKR, I take it as her way of letting the reader see that even a character like Lupin, who was one of James Potter’s most loyal friends, can temporarily lose his way when there’s a confusing choice of paths for him to choose between.
I think that this scene also sets the tone for the trio’s journey during the rest of the book. Lupin is the last of Harry’s role-models that, up until this point, he is still able to put on a pedastal. Harry has to adjust his perfect image of James after seeing him in Snape’s memory; we see Harry sometimes questioning Sirius’s danger-seeking attitude and everything Harry has learned about Dumbledore since his death. I think Harry’s shock and outrage at this moment is justified (but perhaps not is verbal reaction) since he now is faced with Lupin’s cowardly actions. I think it is this moment that Harry realizes how truly alone he, Ron and Hermione are. This definately sets us up for their struggle to keep their hope and faith as they travel across England.
Nice comments Frika! I agree with you about Lupin temporarily losing his way (so well written in this scene!), but I cannot condone his attempt to run away from his fears rather than to face up to them.
I’m not quite sure Lupin is running away. In my mind, I see Lupin and Tonks as revolutionaries. Married though they may be and child though they may have makes no difference. Time is of the essence, they must use every bit of ammunition they have to quelch the uprising of Voldemort. Lupin is offering his services to a good cause and Harry reads into it as cowardly.
No one called John Adams a coward when we was crafting the revolution far, far away from his wife Abigail and their newborn. In fact, Abigail sent him on his way. Tonks and Abigail are both fighters as well and didn’t need to have a man around to run the farm or raise the children.
I cringed when reading the section where Harry lays it on thick to Lupin. I really felt like standing up and saying “Don’t call him COWARD!”
I see where you are coming from Joivre. However, the impression I get when Harry questions Lupin is that Tonks was not involved in Lupin’s decision and that he set off in a rush leaving Tonks behind (perhaps unaware of his plan) at her parents’ house. I see his actions as cowardly because he seems to be running away from his potential responsibility in having passed on a wolf-gene to his child, rather than running into battle with Harry against Voldemort.
Nice catch Joivre, Harry does have a way of calling people coward. He seems to reserve the label for the bravest fighters around him: first Snape, now Lupin. What’s up with that?
See, I like Harry. I like him a lot. I also like Snape and Lupin. All this name calling makes me very unhappy. It doesn’t make sense, and I need it to make sense. To my mind there is some textual justification for Harry calling Snape a coward – Snape is running away at the moment. And I understand that the plot requires a little bit more public villification of Snape just so his redemption can be all the more moving. But for Harry to call Lupin a coward comes out of nowhere. Travis cites Harry’s history of how his father died protecting him. True, that happened. But is that what’s driving Harry’s outburst at this moment? Is Harry trying to protect little Teddy from a similar fate? After Lupin stomps away, Harry has these flashbacks: he remembers Sirius falling through the Veil, Dumbledore tumbling off the Tower, and his mum’s voice begging for mercy. And superimposed on this is Lupin’s tortured face. Putting these facts together, it looks to me almost as if Harry is trying to keep Lupin from dying – he doesn’t want to lose one more friend. Although his words are about Lupin abandoning his wife and son, his emotions are about Lupin abandoning him, like the others.
Now that’s an interpretation I can live with, because it makes Harry much less sanctimonious and much more human.
And ironic too, because of course after all that, Lupin does get killed and does accompany Harry in his walk through the forest along with his parents and Sirius Black, with Dumbledore waiting for him on the other side.
I’m with Fricka and Joivre on Lupin. I don’t consider him a coward. I see him as a tormented man who has lost faith in himself. Harry’s words were cruel, especially as he was comparing apples to oranges.
Harry’s parents were away from the Order because they were protecting their son. True. But they were in hiding because Harry was marked (in LV’s mind) by the prophecy. Had LV not been devoted to the prophecy, perhaps things would have been different. I’m certain, given what we know of James, that he was chafing at the bit being out of action.
Lupin is in a different situation. Tonks has family and friends to take care of her and their child isn’t targeted. Do his fears justify his leaving her in their protection? Maybe so, during these very dark days. Lupin has been a societal outcast and lone warrior for years; and this mindset is probably hard for him to lay aside for domesticity during war.
Harry superimposed these different situations and, therefore, his reasoning wasn’t the best. He reacted emotionally out of his own story and shamed a good friend who was having a hard time. I wish Lupin could have known that Harry immediately regretted his unkind response.
Liked the comments by Fricka, joivre, & Arabella on the matter. But Red Rocker’s interpretation in Comment #11 is also very good & valid. And perhaps Harry’s got more than one thing going on in his head, too. His whole parents should be with their children thing & also his fear, most likely subconscious but pretty close to the surface, of losing Lupin like he’s lost all his other mentors. As we’ve said before, Harry is one screwed up young man. Not that he doesn’t have some reasons to be that way.
Anyway, lots of good comments. Haven’t been able to comment very much yet ’cause I’ve been away. Home now.
Ah, I’m getting quite out-voted here. I’d love to make it interesting by arguing my point, but I also like Red Rocker’s interpretation in comment #11. I stand by Harry’s being allowed to be mad at a dad who won’t stand by his kid; but I think RR has hit the nail on the head that Harry’s underlying motivation is keeping Lupin alive.
Red Rocker, your explanation was very interesting to me. I had not thought of it that way before. And now come to think about it – it reminds me somewhat of (forgive me another Opera reference) La Traviata. There is a scene where Violetta tells Alfredo that she no longer loves him (although she does) to save him from the shamed fate of marrying a courtesean (which she is) and then Alfredo throws bills at her feet and storms out.
Or you can liken it to Gilligan purposely drawing the short straw to save the others from certain death by hurricane.
Or the lie Rick tells Victor Lazlo and Ilse at the end of Casablanca.
Well – if anyone can pull off a martyr complex, I guess it would be Harry Potter. It’s just the coward-part that bugs the heck out of me. I mean he could have just said to Lupin “We’ll always have Paris.”
Travis, you might be out-voted, but you have power of the veto.
Joivre, I’m at a horrible advantage here because although I know the plot of La Traviata, and of course am very familiar with the libretto of the episode where Gilligan purposefully draws the short straw: Little buddy, you hardly have enough ballast to keep you from blowing away!, I have never seen Casablanca. What is the lie that Rick tells Laszlo and Ilse?
disadvantage! , I meant to say disadvantage. I blame the HTML tags – they always trip me up, and the late hour, and the fact that it’s been a killer day. Anything except my own carelessness.
It’s been a while since I’ve posted here, but this coversation is irresistable
I have to agree with Fricka’s comments about Lupin being tortured rather than a coward, but I agree with Travis. As I read this section I was just as angry as Harry, though the whole time I was cringing. I new that Harry would regret his choice of words.
I also think that although Harry is only 17 and has no children, he has every right to react the way he did. He is certainly a 17 year old who has experienced the life of a much older man, and has experienced growing up without a family, which is not something I know anything about. In Harry’s world, to choose to leave your child (regardless of the reasons for leaving!) is unforgivable. He doesn’t think that it should ever be an option, given the choice. I think it’s pretty mature of Harry to be thinking of Teddy, and the impact Lupin’s choices will have on him, rather than being selfish and taking Lupin up on the offer of help.
I also agree that this part of the book is more about Harry, than about Lupin.
Some great comments here!
Lupin may be my favorite character. But I felt, like RedRocker, that this scene came out of nowhere. I think I felt this way because Lupin seemed a flat character and because I thought Harry had no right to call Lupin a coward. When I reread the books, I paid more attention to Lupin, and was surprised by what I’d missed. Many of his character moments coincide with Harry’s, so I’d been distracted.
So, I can blame myself for thinking of Lupin as flat. But I think I blame Rowling for not making it more obvious that Lupin and Harry are fairly close. Harry calls Lupin by his first name; Lupin is the only adult that writes to Harry besides Sirius and Hagrid; Harry will be Teddy’s godfather. I think Rowling saw a closer relationship between Lupin and Harry than what she put on paper. Not seeing Lupin as a round character, I didn’t expect to see him struggling. Not seeing the relationship between Lupin and Harry, I didn’t think Harry had the right to call Lupin a coward.
Red Rocker – I’m amazed you haven’t discovered the ultimate chick flick!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3odtrWWc2A
Yes Miles 365 – this scene was a bit of a clunker. I was a little surprised by it as well.
OK, so now thanks to Joivre, I’ve seen the quintessential tear-jerker chick-flick scene.
Wikipedia says that the studio which released the movie was astounded at how popular it became and how many Oscars it got. Shows that even Hollywood can overestimate the intelligence of the masses.
Have to like the visuals though: watch the tear drop that clings to Bergman’s eyelash through four, maybe five minutes of dialogue. Stubborn bugger that, but very picturesque, especially the way it gleams as it catches the light no matter how Bergman turns her head.
Joivre , Thanks for the link to the final scene of Casablanca. I never thought of this movie as a chick flick, however.
All of the interesting comments on the scene where Harry calls Lupin a coward just illustrates the depth of Ms. Rowling’s writing. There are so many interpretations possible. As for me, I lean towards Fricka’s interpretation in comment 7.
I’m going to vote with Travis on this one too. A person who is not a coward can still do a cowardly thing. Lupin says flat out that he “made a grave mistake in marrying Tonks”–but he seems to be overlooking the fact that he married her, presumably for better or for worse.
I totally understand his emotion, his self-loathing, his sense of rejection by her family, but he needs to hear what Harry tells him. Maybe not the ultimate harshness of it. But even a good person sometimes needs a kick in the rear.
I also think this scene was a necessary inclusion. Lupin brings important news, not the least of which is the news of the baby, who will become the alchemical orphan of the tale. Lupin cannot, however, go Horcrux-hunting with the trio, and his torment over his marriage and child seems to fit just fine with the rest of his character development. A burst of impetuous defense of the innocent is likewise compatible with Harry’s nature.
Good points, Jenna. I agree: Lupin isn’t a coward, but is acting cowardly. He’s not leaving his family to fight. He’s leaving his family. He thinks he’ll endanger them and shame them. Here Lupin thinks about saving the ones he loves by distancing himself from them. Funny that Harry can see the stupidity of this in others, but not in himself. And ironic that Lupin, who taught Harry about fearing fear, isn’t taking his own advice.
Yes, but Lupin was able to tell that Harry only feared fear because his Boggart was a Dementor. While that may be the wisest thing to fear, and hence the best Boggart to have, Lupin’s isn’t that. His Boggart is the moon, a fear we see over and over again.
This is the first chance I’ve had to get here since my comment #12. And I’m throwing my “Lupin is not a coward” car into reverse. Sort of. Seems to me I’ve made a u-turn before here, so don’t mind me lurching down the street in a neck brace.
In this chapter we find Remus not at his best and not thinking clearly. Yes, he’s all the things I said above and is a favorite character of mine, to boot. But what niggles at me is this. Lupin says he regrets marrying Tonks, saying “I’ve made her an outcast.” He’s had a child and he’s terrified it will be like him. This outcast is casting them out. He appears to have already abandoned them; we don’t know that Tonks knows of his intentions. And, as my husband aptly pointed out, he’s cloaking his abandonment under the nobility of helping the Trio fight Voldemort.
The thing is, no one forced Remus to marry Tonks, although you’d think so in this chapter. While Remus isn’t a coward when it comes to being a warrior, he’s an emotional coward here. Instead of facing his emotional and psychological fears, and working through them the hard (and most profitably important way), perhaps with adult peers like Arthur and Molly, and his own wife, he’s taking the easy way out, and dumping his fears on stressed 17-year olds. This isn’t emotional maturity; the wise counselor needs a wise counselor.
Thus, the last mentor Harry admires has let him down. It’s not surprising he became so angry. While his words are cruel, and his insinuations about Remus seeking glory are wrong, this teenager spoke an essential truth, despite his disillusionment–you don’t run from your fears, abandoning your integrity and those who depend on you; you face these fears, grow through them and care for your own. That is true courage.
So, Travis, there you are.
Arabella, you say, “He appears to have already abandoned them; we don’t know that Tonks knows of his intentions.” I agree. My reading of this chapter is that Tonks does NOT know of his intentions. No specific quote, really, just the whole scene. If Tonks and Lupin had discussed Lupin going off with Tonks, Lupin would have appealed to her approval in the conversation.
My impression of Lupin in this chapter is that nearly everything he’s going through is mental. Not to say that werewolves aren’t outcasts, but his belief that he’s made Tonks an outcast, even among her own parents, doesn’t seem right. Ted Tonks doesn’t seem like that sort of fellow. Lupin assumes the child will be like him, but he has no way of knowing that. Everything is happening inside his head, and I get the impression he hasn’t said a word of it until he talks to Harry. Had Harry accepted Lupin, I think Tonks would’ve just gotten a Talking Patronus from him saying, “I’ve gone to help Harry. Don’t wait up.”
“Had Harry accepted Lupin, I think Tonks would’ve just gotten a Talking Patronus from him saying, “I’ve gone to help Harry. Don’t wait up.”
Yeah, Derek D, I’m afraid so. Good points about using Tonks as an argument for going with the Trio and Ted’s character. Because Remus kept his fears to himself, they built up to an irrational level, but that’s understandable due to his experiences and the necessity of his secret-keeping. The poor guy just explodes. I doubt he ever confessed his actions to Tonks.
Arabella – you do persuade beautifully. And if I ever get in trouble with the law – I would want you as my scribe.
There’s a joke among us Catholics;
The Pharasees and the scribes bring forth a woman accused of adultery to Jesus and say “This woman has committed adultery, the law of Moses says she should be stoned to death – what do you say?” Jesus stands up and says “Ye without sin may cast the first stone.” All of a sudden a rock goes whizzing past Jesus’ head and hits the poor woman smack in the middle of her forehead. Jesus whips around to see who threw it and then exasperatedly sighs – “Mother!”
Ok – lame attempt at humor. You might have to be Catholic to get that one. But here’s my point. Who among us hasn’t shown emotional cowardice at least a few times this week, or even today. Think about it. Have you been emotionally dishonest with yourself with false pride, or were you judgemental, or did you just put off thinking about something painful? We all sin. As House says – everyone lies. But the question I have is, do we have to get stoned to death for it? Maybe not – so what is the price? Is it ten stones for lying? Twenty for inflating your resume? Thirty for cheating on your taxes? Or can we just get to throw a stone because we’re having a really bad day? Who cares about the sin – she needs to be punished anyhow – at least now I can get my video-game withdrawal out on someone else. Hey and also someone cheated on my best friend and that makes me real angry do I get another stone for that?
I am going to go out on a limb here (and I might get a few stones thrown at me as well) and say that it’s Harry who’s being a coward. He’s kicking a dog when it’s down (no pun intended for Lupin). If someone called me a coward everytime I avoided something – I’d be even more of a crazy artist than I already am.
Now I know – it wouldn’t be a very exciting chapter if Harry sat down with Lupin and said “Gee, you seem a little anxious about this. Maybe we can sit down and talk this over a butterbeer of few.” But to rail into Lupin just because it happened to Harry makes me uneasy.
But Arabella – you almost had me there. You’re good. Very good.
I wouldn’t say Harry is a coward. Royally screwed up, yes. But not a coward. Harry is more often tempted towards bravado rather than cowardice. I think he was trying to get the right thing across to Lupin but was mixed up both in his emotions & also in his inability to articulate his thoughts. Harry, after all, doesn’t have much emotional range either. If Ron’s is a teaspoon, maybe Harry has the emotional range of a tablespoon?
Dear Rev. George, I could never call Harry a coward outright and totally, even though it seems I just had. He’s not a coward anymore than Lupin. No cowards there. They just got into it. They were nasty to each other. We all get that way sometimes. I just get upset when they do.
By the way – I think if anyone’s going to cast to first stone at me – I was happy it was you. You’re the one who defends Harry – and I will too. Because I adore him. As I am sure you do too.
Now where’s Red Rocker to defend me? I’m sure he’s crying into his fire-whiskey since his beloved Caps lost tonight. Ah – well. Such is quidditch and hockey.
ok. I’m bored no one’s challenging/engaging me. This is definitely an east coast happening. Supreme bummer for me on the west coast.
Come to think of it – maybe I’m boring on both coasts! Oh woe is me.
Joivre, LOL. I’m north of Seattle and I have the same problem on occasion. I’m also Catholic, and I got the joke.
But it’s getting late and my brain is past the point where it’s much use at challenging. I’ll just say that, true, Harry and Lupin were harsh with each other–but I think Lupin needed to be challenged. He was past down and out and into “feeling a bit of a daredevil”, as Harry put it. I don’t know if a long talk over butterbeers would have been quite enough at that point.
Certainly, it’s not the most pleasant and comfortable scene to read.
Unfortunately, I have to put my tired brain to sleep now. See you in the morning.
Joivre,/b> You’re not dull! I’m a west coast person too. Sadly, I need to get my butt in bed and can’t say much now, but I wanted to chime in and say I’ve really enjoyed Travis’s post and this discussion so far, including your thoughts Joivre (I also wanted to comment so I can get the rest of the discussion in my email, ha ha!). I agree with Travis, bu I also think the perspective on Lupin losing his way is accurate as well, and Red Rocker’s point about Harry’s outburst also being about his fear for Lupin’s life as well makes sense. I agree with revgeorge that there are multiple things going on here.
I didn’t think the scene came out of nowhere because we see Lupin looking strange (and Tonks seemingly oblivious or in powerful denial) at Harry’s birthday and at the wedding, so we knew something was brewing there. In my opinion, Lupin’s not a coward, but he was acting cowardly in this instance.
Yes, my team lost last night. Three possible explanations: the Rangers were really driven to win after having been eliminated by us in the quarter finals last year. We were really running on fumes after the super-intense game and heart crushing loss against Philly on Tuesday. Or Tortorello is a good coach and has us figured out after playing against us seven times in a row last May. Probably all three explanations are true. Whatever the case, it was a dispiriting loss and doesn’t make me want to engage in verbal sparring, especially since I feel I’ve said my piece.
But it’s a new day, so let’s re-engage.
I think that intepretations of what happens in the text should be based at least minimally on the text. What we know about human nature is valid information, how we feel people should act is probably a little less relevant, but still somewhat cogent. But at the end of the day, in order to interpret the text, we have to look at the text. So to all of the above arguments I say: I would be more willing to debate you if you would link your position to some passages or summaries, or some text-based evidence.
Ha ha, Joivre, you are NOT boring on both coasts, or in between either. That joke about casting the first stone was very amusing, and even though I’m not Catholic, I got it! Anyway, I’m just now catching up with the posts in the early a.m on Friday here in Arizona, which is light years(all right, make that three hours, but it FEELS like light years, lol) from the East Coast, and one or two from the West, depending on when it switches to Daylight savings time. Anyhoo, I have been enjoying the repartee connected to the scene between Harry and Lupin. Revgeorge was on the right track when he mentioned Harry’s lack of emotional depth. Remus and Harry both have that problem, I think. Remember when Harry didn’t know what to make of Cho when she was crying all the time? It was Hermione who had to explain to him what Cho was going through. At least Harry’s had a girlfriend, though. I hypothesize that Lupin never had one while he was at Hogwarts, and finding himself being in a relationship now, and not just one of a schoolboy/schoolgirl, but in a marriage, with all the responsibilities that go with it, has probably got him confused and off balance emotionally. You know, we tend to think of the Marauders as really cool and mature, but in a lot of ways, they were quite juvenile emotionally. James, of course, was able to mature enough to finally establish a relationship with Lily, but we don’t see that same growth in either Sirius or Remus. (Sirius, of course, was locked up in Azkaban, so that clearly stunted him emotionally during that time period. Since he gets killed in OOTP, we never get a chance to see him moving much past his youthful teens, emotionally). Remus, of course APPEARs more mature when he deals with Harry in POA, but we have no view of what he’s like with the opposite sex, when he’s at home, so to speak. I just think that Harry and Remus both exemplify the problems many men have, when they don’t have either the exposure to women that growing up with sisters would give them, or that years of dating would give them.
Joivre, that joke made me laugh out loud; it’s a keeper! And you entertain me. Your lawyer? Haha. My husband says I’d make a good one, as I’m always digging.
The term “coward” is a pretty strong one. And cowardice, as Joivre pointed out, is a pretty broad spectrum. I imagine we all have a drawer of metaphorical white feathers. I believe you can be fearful or act cowardly without being a downright coward. I said Remus was an emotional coward, but I didn’t mean it in a cruel sense. The poor guy has had a lonely, difficult life, his friendships have been very few, and he’s likely never had a romantic relationship, as Fricka points out. When he must face his fears and work through them in an intimate wedded context, with a child on the way, he opts out to jump ship and go with his comfort zone as “lone wolf.” He’s not afraid of Voldemort; he’s afraid of himself.
Red Rocker, I thought I’d made a pretty good case from the text and Lupin’s history as we know it. But perhaps I’ve failed in this. Here goes.
Harry is disturbed by Remus’s “cold tone” and speaking of Tonks “with a finality bordering on indifference” (p 211-212). Remus says he “made a great mistake in marrying Tonks. I did it against my better judgment and I have regretted it very much ever since.” (213). Whoo-ee! We can only hope Tonks never gets wind of this conversation. It’s hideous. Remus goes berserk and demonstrates the twisted torment he feels, projecting his disgust over his condition to everyone else. “He actually seized handfuls of his own hair; he looked quite deranged” (213). He has a “tortured white face” (215).
But, before this, on page 211 he offers to go with the Trio, saying “I could come with you to provide protection” (211). So he’s willing to protect the Trio, but is abdicating that responsibility to his own family. To be truly free, he must face his dementor, by doing what he fears most–stay with his family, and work through and overcome that dementor.
Harry responds out of his own story, superimposing his parents situation (with himself as target) with Remus’s (no child as target except in a vague maybe future). That his “essential truth”–”you reckon [my father]‘d tell you to abandon your kid to go on an adventure with us?” (214)–is cloaked in an angry, hurtful outburst is too bad, but to be expected, as here is disillusionment with one more mentor. Harry lacks the insightfulness and compassion of Hermione, and even–surprise!–Ron.
Harry quickly feels remorse and admits he shouldn’t have called Remus a coward, “but he’s acting like one.” (215). But he feels that Remus returning to Tonks will be “worth it” (216). Then he feels awful and wonders if James really would have backed him or been angry at him (216).
That Remus is one of the people at his side when he walks to his death, says a lot about the maturation of both Remus and Harry.
Ok. I’m ready for chapter 12.
What, Joivre, no more jokes or pithy comments? I’m disappointed.
BTW, BRAVA, Arabella , for that brilliant summing up of Lupin’s lack of dealing with his own personal dementor.
Now, before Travis, or whoever else is going to be presenting the summary for Chapter 12 gets on , I want to take a look at the latter part of the chapter, where Harry finds out that the locket was taken by Mundungus Fletcher(up to his old thieving ways again) and sends Kreature to bring him to Grimmauld Place. As a reader, it’s very satisfying to have Harry get the chance to confront Mundungus again, as the last time he saw Dung, he discovered that old Smelly was disposing of Sirius’(and now Harry’s) property from GP. Now Dung is forced to return to the scene of the crime and give testimony as to the whereabouts of the real locket/Horcrux. I did get a kick out of Kreature beating on Mundungus, and when asked to stop by Harry, asked if he could hit Dung one for time, ” for luck”! Talk about a bribe working! I would never, never, NEVER have guessed that Kreature, who had that monumental House-Elf tantrum at the beginning of HBP, at the news that Harry Potter was his master now, would have come around 180 degrees and be supportive of Harry. It goes to show(as I’m sure Rowling meant it to) that kindness is never misplaced, even when the person(or house-elf) seems a hopeless case. Dumbledore and Hermione got it, of course, but when Harry gets that idea and acts on it, giving Kreature the locket that had belonged to Regulus Black, it seems that”Bribe” melted the ice around Kreature’s heart. *sniff* That gets me every time!
Sorry Friendly Fricka – but after reading Arabella’s almighty post – I’m pithed out.
typo intended.
Yes – Fricka, the Kreacher 180 did surprise me too. Happily. There’s a little part of SPEW in me, though, that always gets confused at the absolute loyalty of the elves to their Masters and to service as well. Like Hermione, I couldn’t understand why they didn’t appreciate their freedom. Maybe this has something to do with the arrogance of colonialism. I’m not sure. But I was proud of Harry for giving Kreacher the locket.
Frika, I’m glad that you brought the conversation back to the scene at the end of the chapter. I have the same feelings about this moment. Something that just occured to me as I’m writing this post is that this scene with Kreacher is well placed after the episode with Lupin. Harry is able to forgive Kreacher for how he betrayed Sirius, finally understanding Kreacher’s story and knowing how he was treated by Regulus and Sirius. I think this foreshadows Harry and Lupin’s moment of forgiveness later in DH. To quote Jenna from way back in the comments, Harry finally realizes that “a person who is not a coward can still do a cowardly thing”. I think he is able to differentiate between the circumstances that caused Lupin to act the way he did, and the person that Lupin actually is, just as he is able to do with Kreacher.
Joivre, as I’m not sure I have a pot to pith in (heh), I’d like to comment on another aspect of the chapter that Travis brings out. (But thanks, all for the kind words.)
We learn that hostile Scrimgeour didn’t give Harry away under torture; he did have some decency, after all.
The DEs used the Cruciatus Curse on Tonks’ family. As Remus says, “They’ve got the power to perform brutal spells without fear of identification or arrest….they were completely open about why they’d come” to the wedding. It’s daylight for the DEs. The frightened public can’t trust one another. Education is tightly-controlled. Muggleborns are persecuted and excised. Innocents are targeted. And Harry is accused of murdering Dumbledore.
The government, the media and fear have completely taken over WizWorld, now a totalitarian terrorist society. And Volde War II is on full throttle.
I like that: Volde War II
I thought that JKR did an excellent job on the takeover of the wizarding world by the Death Eaters. Neatly imagined.
Speaking of politics and fantasy worlds -which impinge closely on our own – I’m also impressed by how Charlaine Harris imagines vampire, were and fae politics. In fact, if enough people are interested, maybe we could have a post on the Sookie Stackhouse saga.
Well since I’m coming to this chapter late, I’m selfishly going to steer it back to the Lupin/Harry debate. Everyone’s comments were very interesting. I wanted to highlight the Lupin/Snape parallel. I think Harry calling Lupin coward was meant to emphasize the parallel between Lupin and Snape. As we learn by the end neither was a coward when it came to the fight against Voldemort but both were emotional cowards. Snape for never really being able to get over Harry’s resemblance to James and see his true worth and Remus for what he says about his marriage to Tonks and his attempt to abandon her. I have to say when I first read DH I thought that Remus in this scene wasn’t really Remus but Snape under Polyjuice Potion, esp. since Remus’ reaction to being called a coward is identical to Snape’s at the end of HBP and later at Shell Cottage Harry feels that Remus is acting as if the scene at Grimmauld Place never happened. However, that interpretation seems to have been mistaken, but I really wondered strongly about it even on my second reading.
As always Lily Luna – you intrigue me! Snape under polyjuice is an interesting thought. Please do go on.
Back to what Red Rocker was saying about maybe having a post on the Sookie Stackhouse books, I’d be interested, especially if we compared the way Harris treats her Vampires/Werewolves, and the way that JK Rowling has them in the Harry Potter series. Wonder if we could get one going before Halloween.
I’m like Joivre, too; I’m intrigued by what Lily Luna wrote about her suspicions that the Lupin we see in the scene with the trio in GP is a polyjuiced Snape. I’d like to have her explain how Snape would consider masquerading as Lupin in the first place, and take it from there. Back to you, LL!
I don’t know what is it is about the sookie stuff. All the incest made me uneasy and I didn’t like it right off the bat. In fact – I give my books to others. Now – all of you should know right now, there’s been no weirdness in my life. From my dad or bro or whoever. They are the best men I know. But this series is based on some serious crap. And I don’t like it.
I am wondering why I don’t want to read it here on this site?
Maybe someplace else. Any other women warriors like me? If not, not a problem.
I was thinking it would give Snape a way to monitor and protect the trio or get the drop on Harry if Snape was in fact a bad guy (I read the series straight through for the first time after DH came out so I never had the review and reflect period after HBP everyone else had). It’s possible Snape had a stock of hair of all of the order members for Order activities. Another idea I played with (during my second and third and maybe even fourth readthroughs) was that Lupin knew Snape was still on the side of the light and that this visit was done with Lupin’s connivance, that sometimes it would be Lupin with them had they agreed to the escort and sometimes it would be Polyjuice!Lupin. Part of my thinking on this was my belief that Snape continued to make the Wolfsbane for Lupin even after third year and esp. after Voldie’s return. I had noticed that Lupin doesn’t say anything at the end of HBP when Harry says that Snape hated Lily and called her mudblood. While he knows Snape said that, I find it hard to believe that he didn’t know that Snape and Lily had been friends and that Snape had apologized to Lily afterwards. To my mind, Harry’s comment in HBP should have made Lupin realize that what Dumbledore meant by the the reason he gave for trusting Snape was that Snape felt remorse over Lily’s death. In addition, his cold unemotional attitude towards Dora seemed more Snape-like than Remus-like. And as I said they had similar responses to being called coward. However, Lupin does seem quite shaken up after the 7 Potters flight to the Burrow when Snape cuts off George’s ear. And nowhere are we told that Remus in this chapter was not Remus or that Remus knew more than the other Order members. So either I misinterpreted this scene (probable) or Rowling entertained an idea like what I was thinking but abandoned it along the way.
I should also mention that the things Lupin says to Harry to “prove” his identity are all things that Snape would know.
I think I might be alone on this one.
Joivre, I don’t understand your reference to incest in the Sookie Stackhouse books. Are you talking about the werepanthers of Hot Shot? What am I missing?
As the series begins, Sookie describes herself as someone with very little living family. One of her few relatives is a great-uncle, but she hasn’t seen him since she was a child. The reason for this was that Sookie’s great-uncle had molested both her and her aunt, Linda, when the girls were very young. Not long after her parents’ deaths, Sookie’s grandmother bans him from contacting Sookie, thus saving her from further molestation. It is later revealed that he has also molested Sookie’s female cousin Hadley.
and this is just the beginning of the horror.
Sorry, it’s too much for me. And dude, I can take a lot – just not htis much.
Whoops, this much, I just can’t take this much. Because I just plain don’t like it.
So where are you Hermione loving, Red Rocker? Where the heck are you?
OK, I get it now. I would have called the great-uncle’s actions sexual assault, that’s why I missed the incest reference.
I don’t think that those assaults are a very big part of the story. At least, they haven’t been so far. Mind, I’m just starting book 7 All Together Dead so maybe the assaults assume a greater importance later on.
Can you also explain your comment that this is just the beginning of the horror? There is a fair amount of violence in the books, what with the maenad and the internecine warfare amongst the vampires and Thing One and Thing Two (I skipped ahead a little); is that what you mean?
No! I go no further! That is enough for everyone. I will explain no more. For Sookie or anyone. Vampires and werewolves make no difference to me since they do not exist. The horror lies in reality and I will not discuss that with anyone, anywhere, and anyhow. I am disappointed in you and the Sookie series. Simple as that.
Sorry, I might be too forceful.
Joivre,
There’s some odd comments coming out recently.
Please keep the comments on topic and constructive.
Thanks.
Matthew
Joivre, I don’t think Red Rocker was asking you to share anything beyond discussion of the Sookie novels; I think those were all just clarifying questions about your interpretation of the books, nothing more.
For the record, discussion of novels that interest people is going to happen on this site, and not everyone is going to like all the novels discussed. We hit our lowest traffic ever on this site when we were discussion Lovecraft for the first time; lots of folks just couldn’t get into him for lots of reasons. We all know what happens when another certain vampire series gets brought up here.
So, we may, indeed, have a post on Sookie, since we’re talking about vampires and other Gothic stuff this month, and there’s some interest in it. If you’re uncomfortable, ignore that post and stick with the ones you prefer!
On the whole, let’s move back away from Sookie in this post and back to chapter 11 of DH.
Oh Shoot! I over-extendeed myself.
Please forgive me.
No worries, Joivre! We all get off-topic and occasionally worked up. You recognized it (even before any of the moderators had a chance to respond); so onward we go!
No excuse on my side – gee I can be very nasty and awful sometimes. So sorry.
Geee! The things one misses out on when gone from this site for a day!
Glad everything seems to be sorted out now in re the C. Harris books.
Anyway, I will bravely throw myself in the gap here and get back to Lily Luna’s intriguing idea of the Lupin in this scene really being a polyjuiced Snape. It’s true that both Lupin and Snape have quite similar reactions to Harry’s calling them “coward.” However, might not this be because both Snape AND Lupin have been serving as Double agents–dangerous work that takes courage? I don’t see either of them having a problem with someone who doesn’t know them calling them that name, but when it’s coming from Harry, that’s another story altogether. Snape, after all, is doing what he’s doing in spying on Voldemort to help keep Harry alive. I think we can say the same for Lupin, and assume that Dumbledore asked him to perform a similar function with the Werewolf contingent. It can’t be easy for Lupin, having to have contact with the Werewolves, especially as he has that twisted history with Fenrir Greyback. Maybe he’s even had to watch Greyback bite other young boys(or girls) as part of being in the pack. The point I’m trying to make is that both of these characters were doing extremely dangerous work, and it was on the behest of Harry. For him to call them “Coward” to their face must have seemed like a terrible insult, and the problem is, they can’t tell him what they are doing to protect him, because it’s still secret. Well, Harry knows that Lupin is working with the Werewolves, but I’m sure he doesn’t understand all the ramifications of that. It seems to me that it’s hitting below the belt when he calls Lupin “Coward”, not that I approve of Lupin’s actions in leaving Tonks and Teddy, or what he says about his marriage. That’s a different issue, at least for me at this point. I don’t know if I’m making sense here, but it just doesn’t seem that likely to me that Snape would polyjuice Lupin to check on the trio. For one thing, what’s he going to do with Lupin while he’s visiting them? For another, I don’t think Jo Rowling would have a character like Snape impersonate Lupin and not reveal it later. We did, after all, find that the Professor who seemed to be Alastor Moody was Barty Crouch, Jr. in GOF. However, there’s no reference in canon to this kind of action between Snape and Lupin.
Anyone else have some thoughts on this?
Fricka, I agree with your comment #68. I think you’ve laid out your case well. I agree that it must have been extremely agitating for Harry’s protectors to have him call them cowards. And how Lupin must have suffered as part of Fenrir’s pack as a double agent. I see him as the most tragic hero in the books, followed by Snape (Snape is second because he made his own tragedies and stubbornly clung to his bitternesses).
During the Interlibrum, the speculation of polyjuicing ran high, until almost everyone and everything was polyjuiced, practically to George’s severed ear. So, Lily Luna, your polyjuicing theories fit in with what was being considered at the time.
In the initial recap, Travis does a great job talking about the educational changes implemented, and it makes me wonder about Rowling’s stance on education in general. Is pedagogy talked about in more detail on this site or at others? I assume OotP would have a huge amount of insight, but all the books would to some extent. I would be very interested in hearing more analysis on education in Harry Potter.
Derek D, you might be interested in my podcast, Quills, Queries, Quests, which is a talk on education and Harry Potter that I gave at a conference.
Here’s one I did on Harry Potter & literacy.
Here’s a paper and lesson plans I wrote up on the same subject.
And here’s an article I wrote for Suite101.com on Fred and George and subversive students. (I really need to migrate that article over here, as I no longer write for Suite101).
As I said, my ideas about Lupin and Snape and whether Snape was polyjuicing Lupin are theories I had considered and discarded. I do think there was an intended parallel to perhaps hint that Snape was not so different from Lupin but not that we were supposed to think one was the other.
If there is an intended parallel, and if it’s that Snape is not so different from Lupin, then what exactly is the similarity? That Harry is right and they are both cowards? That Harry is right and they are both emotional cowards? That Harry is wrong and neither is a coward?
I’m of the school that Harry is wrong in both cases, although he has more justification in the first case. But I also think that if the author wanted us to realize that Harry was wrong – and was using the Lupin example to give us a clue about Harry’s wrongness re: Snape – she did not make her meaning very clear. As we can see from the wide discrepancy in the way readers interpret the same text.
Or we could just fling authorial intent out the window and say that the text is capable of multiple interpretations. Which is not an idea I’m comfortable with. I prefer to think that the author didn’t do a good job making her meaning clear than to think that we don’t need to figure out what she meant.
This past weekend I went to a beach party and drank three (very large) margarites, barely bicycled home and proceeded, very unwisely, to post on in site. I shall never do that again because there are only three possible outcomes when you do that:
A. You wind up calling someone a Mudblood
B. You wake up the next day with the dark mark on your left arm
C. Or as in the case of Snape, both of the above.
Thankfully B. did not occur, but I sincerely regret my stupid posts (in particular to RR) and seek redemption. I promise not to do it again and to be more constructive and positive on this site, as I like it very much.
Contritely yours,
Joivre
No problem Joivre.
Thanks RR – I was a queen of the wild things….
But Joivre stepped into her private boat and waved goodbye and sailed back over a year, and in and out of weeks, and through a day, and into the night of her very own room where she found her supper waiting for her….
and it was still hot.
Well done everyone.
Let’s move on now.