Chapter 8 is brought to you by guest-blogger Red Rocker!
The camera loves the wedding scene. It roams from one small group to another, picking up a conversation here, an argument there, a quick glimpse of a girl dancing by herself over there, a young man finding a seat at a table by an old man, getting him to talk about the past, an old woman settling down beside them to provide a derisive counterpoint to the discussion. Chapter 8 reads like it was written for the camera – but perhaps that’s the nature of weddings, to be episodic, transient, giving glimpses of many lives brought together in a brief moment of juxtaposition, until they go their separate ways again.
So we see the Weasley twins acting out their patented shtick – and because we have already read the book to the end, it breaks our hearts when Fred talks about his own wedding. We see Krum ogling Hermione and – unforgivably – Ginny, and we hear him drop a tidbit of information about Grindelwald. We hear Luna greet the disguised Harry, easily seeing through the effects of the polyjuice. We see Ron’s brief moment of shock as he sees a dolled up Hermione and watch the two of them warily working toward their long-overdue union. And then Harry pulls up a seat beside Doge, Aunt Muriel plops herself between them and the camera settles down to the main event.
I’m writing this as I’m reading the commentary on the post on Chapter 2, when Harry is first confronted by the wizarding world’s contradictory takes on Dumbledore. Dave has just written that “Dumbledore has to be “recovered” because his death, combined with Harry’s memories and the public descriptions, has scattered his identity.”
This time around, we – through Harry – get the public descriptions in counterpoint: Muriel attacks, while Doge defends. What I found most entertaining was their respective emotional tones: Doge is distraught at the truths Muriel is delivering between gulps of champagne. She, on the other hand, is enjoying herself mightily. The story she tells is the tale of Ariana – the sister who was locked away from the world by her family. It horrifies Harry because of the similar fate he suffered as a child, and because he can’t reconcile his knowledge of Dumbledore with someone who could let that happen. And then the final blow: the revelation that Dumbledore’s family lived at Godric’s Hollow. Harry doesn’t know why this affects him so strongly. All he knows is that Dumbledore’s failure to tell him they had this in common was “tantamount to a lie”. This is the moment, I think, when he realizes how little he knew Dumbledore.
Think about this. You know a man for six years. You’re not equals, and you don’t spend all that much time together, but you share some pretty hairy experiences. You witness two deaths together. The man is your mentor and someone whom you would and do follow to the literal ends of the earth. And at the end of the day, after he dies, you find out that he never told you that he comes from the same town where you were born. He denied you this small fact which anyone would have shared with you without thought. How would you feel?
We have argued endlessly at this site about Dumbledore’s nature. Whether he lied by omission or commission. Whether he used people, and used Harry. Whether he was compassionate and generous, or deceptive and manipulative. His defenders explain his actions as motivated by the best of motives. His detractors view his actions as motivated by the view that the end justifies the means. But whichever stance you take on why he acts as he does, it is hard to argue against the view that at this moment in time Harry feels betrayed. He doesn’t feel betrayed because Dumbledore has failed to tell him about weighty matters such as Voldemort or horcruxes. He feels betrayed because Dumbledore has failed to inform him about a very simple and basic thing about himself.
And this, I believe is one of the basic things about Dumbledore: his refusal to share even the smallest thing about himself. Interpret that as you will – and I will not interpret it for you – Dumbledore will not share even the smallest piece of truth about himself with Harry, whom he loves.
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{ 40 comments… read them below or add one }
Nice post, Red Rocker, it’s probably poetic that Harry’s faith in Dumbledore is shaken at the exact time that he’s forced into hiding by the fall of the ministry to Voldemort’s minions.
I love the fact that Luna is so perceptive that she can see through Harry’s polyjuiced self.
On Dumbledore, I won’t defend his actions, but he might be the most introverted character in the series (besides maybe Snape). Knowing what we know now about how the only person that felt close to on an intellectual level was really his doppelganger, the only person that he probably shared some of his thoughts and feelings with and then betrayed him (or DD thought he was betrayed when Grindelvald attacked his family) drove him farther into introversion. Driving that aspect of his personality to the surface, creating a person that could not even share the most basic of facts about himself to the people who were closest to him like Doge or Harry.
I see Dumbledore as enlightened one who has transcended the past and future for the now. He simply ignores what is no longer important and so is often guilty of not having empathy for Harry who is so attached to the world. Harry dwells on the past, his parents his future. What Dumbledore did where he lived has no more meaning to him he has forgiven himself his sins. Dumbledore is here now what needs to be done now to set the world right.
I was often frustrated with Dumbledore in the last three books, and like Harry, I was rather upset by all the revelations in this chapter, though I didn’t entirely trust the source. I don’t know how much of it was Dumbledore purposely keeping things from Harry and how much was just his natural way of keeping his distance from people. He doesn’t seem to be someone who ever confides much in people, and telling Harry about their shared hometown would probably be uncomfortably intimate for him.
Muriel is an obnoxious character, and I felt sorry for Elphias, but I loved getting to see her in action after those hints about her. She definitely reminds me of a couple people I know. I thought her commentary earlier was especially funny, and with pretty much everybody falling victim to her nastiness, I can’t imagine anyone would take her slights to heart too much. Of course, knowing that about her makes her a slightly less reliable dispenser of information, just like Rita Skeeter. But it’s probably better that Harry struggle through it with someone like her; he has to put all of the half-truths together and work out for himself what it all means.
I absolutely love the image of Luna dancing by herself, as well as the fact that she recognized Harry immediately. I suspected she would; she’s so perceptive. And the bit with the gernumblies really cracked me up, as did the introduction to Xeno in general. In this chapter I just viewed him as enjoyably daffy; I wasn’t quite so fond of him after the second encounter, but there’s no doubt, at least, that he really loves his daughter.
Just curious – Why is Krum’s ogling of Ginny unforgivable? Or do you just mean from Harry’s perspective? Of course, it makes him come across as more shallow; at least there was a pre-existing relationship with Hermione. But she isn’t that much younger than Hermione, and she probably looks older than she is all dressed in her fancy wedding wear.
Fred talking about his wedding really is sad. Maybe George’s wedding will be super-casual as a tribute…
Dumbledore will not share even the smallest piece of truth about himself with Harry, whom he loves.
Not surprising for someone who is thoroughly ashamed of himself.
I like your description of the chapter “as written for the camera.” Very true.
Brent, I love your choice of the word doppelganger to describe what Grindelwald is to Dumbledore. I think it captures a lot of the nuances of their relationship.
Red Rocker, I think you are right to draw our attention to Harry’s sense of betrayal that Dumbledore did not mention that he also grew up in Godric’s Hollow. It is this moment causes him to doubt everything he knows (and didn’t know) Dumbledore. When in 4 Privet Drive, Harry immediately dismisses the excerpts from Rita’s biography as lies, but after his conversation with Muriel and Elphias at the wedding we begin to see him question his faith in Dumbledore.
Fred & George Weasley
“George’s wound was neat and clean, but Harry was not yet used to the dark hole in the side of his head,” I agree that would we very hard to get used to. Another possible significance in history of the twins’ names is that Britain’s George III became King because of the early death of Frederick, Prince of Wales. George III was also deaf in one ear. (George III born: 1738 ruled 1760-1820 AD)
Yes, #3 – Erin, I also feel very saddened when Fred wishes: “. . .When I get married,” said Fred, tugging at the collar of his own robes, “I won’t be bothering with any of this nonsense. You can all wear what you like, and I’ll put a full Body-Bind Curse on Mum until it’s all over.” Fred never gets his wish.
Angelina Johnson and George get married and he and Angelina have two children: Fred II and Roxanne.
“It horrifies Harry because of the similar fate he suffered as a child, and because he can’t reconcile his knowledge of Dumbledore with someone who could let that happen. ” (above)
Subconsciously, perhaps, he is acknowledging just what Dumbledore did to him, what Dumbledore told him over a year earlier but which he does not seem to have absorbed or processed until now, when he can externalize it:
“Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I had planned and intended. Well — not quite whole. You had suffered. I knew you would when I left you on your aunt and uncle’s doorstep. I knew I was condemning you to ten dark and difficult years.” OOTP 835 (emphasis added).
“Five years ago, then . . . you arrived at Hogwarts, neither as happy nor as well nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped for under the circumstances.” OOTP 837.
“I had fallen into the trap I had foreseen, that I had told myself I could avoid, that I must avoid. . . I cared about you too much. . . I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed.” OOTP 838
I have to run now; more comments later.
oops, didn’t do the emphasis (bold) right in the first quote – meant to highlight “I knew I was condemning you to ten dark and difficult years.” Condemning Harry, a mere one year old baby to an abusive, neglectful childhood. Harry’s been raised not to think of himself as worth anything, but he can be indignant for someone else, Ariana.
Great post, Red Rocker, and perceptive comments all round, esp. from Lily Luna.
Post and comments make me wonder… Why didn’t Dumbledore ever tell Harry about being his neighbor?
Two answers, both of which I think are true:
(1) Dumbledore, ever the manipulator, knows that if he talks about Godric’s Hollow, he will stimulate Harry’s latent and natural desire to see the place where he was born, where his parents were killed. And Dumbledore sees no good reason for Harry to go there, because there are no Horcruxes and no clues there. And perhaps Dumbledore even realizes that Voldemort will expect Harry to go there, and could lay a trap.
(2) Dumbledore knows that even a mention of his own relationship to Godric’s Hollow will spur a whole host of questions: When did you live there? Were you born there, too? Did you grow up there? Did you know my family when you lived there? Tell me about your own family…. Questions Dumbledore cannot, cannot, CANNOT answer. So even though Harry has been far less of a question-asker through his time at Hogwarts than anyone would normally be in the same circumstances, Dumbledore doesn’t dare open the subject.
Just my $.02.
To continue . . .
Dumbledore’s plan, formulated when Harry was only 15 months old, was to give Harry to people who would dislike him and raise him to have no self worth so that he would value others’ safety and happiness before his own, in the hope that one day he would have some sort of power that would enable him to defeat Voldemort, and the willingness to sacrifice himself for the cause. Sure the blood protection kept him safe from Voldy and the remaining Death eaters, but DD probably could have kept Harry safe at Hogwarts and raised him himself with the help of the teachers. As they move through Harry’s Hogwarts years, DD begins to care about him, and tries to put off telling Harry about the prophecy so that Harry will be “happy.” However, he knows all this time that Harry will have to die before Voldy can be killed for good. Not until Voldy uses Harry’s blood in his resurrection does DD see a possible way for Harry to survive. And so he continues to manipulate and scheme. In the end DD and Harry get lucky (because Rowling writes it as such) and Harry does survive and get to lead a normal rest of his life. There is perhaps a false dichotomy between the views of DD as “compassionate and generous” versus “deceptive and manipulative.” I think he was all four of those and conflicted by it. Nevertheless, do the ends justify the means? Was it okay for DD to decide that a baby could be a weapon, that a baby’s happiness and possibly life could be sacrificed so that people in the distant future might be saved from Voldemort? What of Amelia Bones and Emmeline Vance, murdered by Death Eaters at the beginning of HBP: Snape tells Bellatrix that his info led to their deaths, which means he gave whatever said info was to Voldemort on DD’s instructions. Did Bones and Vance willingly agree to sacrifice their own lives to support Snape’s cover as spy? Vance was in the Order but Bones was not. Did DD deliberately leak info that would cause their deaths without their consent just to enhance Snape’s ability to spy, pass disinformation, and eventually protect the students? Is he any better than Voldemort if he did so? Quite frankly, Harry is far too forgiving of DD in King’s Cross, but then DD has raised him to be so.
Janet, I agree with you on both counts as to why DD doesn’t tell Harry about Godric’s Hollow. In fact, DD should have explicitly warned Harry not to go looking for his parents’ graves because Voldemort was sure to have a trap laid there.
Lots of good theories about why DD didn’t tell Harry they come from the same home town: introversion combined with a sense of superiority, a sense of shame, to protect Harry, his natural way of keeping people distant.
At a certain level I’m pretty certain that DD didn’t tell Harry because JKR didn’t want us to know this until near the end, when it would have a much greater emotional impact, both in terms of the world and the story telescoping down to an intense focus, and in terms of the sense of betrayal.
But in this case, I think that the demands of the story match the natural tendencies of the character. DD is all that people have described him as being, in the posts above, especially the sense of superiority, the need to keep people distant, and above all, the sense of shame. Don’t forget, he took his shame to the grave. Harry literally had to die to get him to confess to the truth.
Erin, you’re right: the main reason I said Krum ogling Hermione was “unforgivable” is because the story is being told from Harry’s perspective. I meant that Harry would find it intensely annoying that Krum could for a moment imagine that Ginny was available. Sexist of him, I know, but after all, he is the Chosen One.
This is such an interesting discussion! So many possiblities ruminate to the surface and all of them valid in the comments above. My own personal take on Dumbledore’s secrecy was reborn not until well after the publications of the last book.
It was when Ms. Rowling announced that Albus was gay. It was a complete “Aha!” moment. It made me realize that of course, since there was vicious anti-muggle sentiment among the Wizarding world, why wouldn’t there be prejudice and hatred of those who were same-sex lovers. I can imagine Albus acquiring a self-hatred for his cupability (whether actual or not) in his sister’s death, but also for the fact that his allegience was originally for his gay lover. I would imagine in Albus’ youth that it was as taboo (wrongly so) in the wizarding community as it was in the early 20th muggle century. So back into the closet he went, taking with him all horrible memories of his past.
What truly pained me however, was not the fact that he omitted so many personal details to Harry, but the fact that self-acceptness and self-forgiveness eluded Albus even after death. As they sat in the white station, he wept still. I wished so much that he would have accepted his life as it was. A good and true one and the truth was out at last.
On top the wedding Tent marquee is a golden flag. In this chapter the wedding we have a lot of gold to mine here.
There are SO many great golden/yellow references in this and companying chapters, almost as many times as the word “incredulous” is used in the series. JKR is certainly loading the pallet with golden imagery. (Sorry, I couldn’t help it being a graphic artist)
Outside, butterflies and bees were hovering lazily over the grass and hedgerow. Bees possibly Bumblebees for Dumbledore and these bees make “golden honey” Gold is associated with Royalty and Nobles another symbolic meaning of the color gold is for divinity, majesty and wealth. Often gold/yellow is associated with happiness, optimism, intelligence.
Gold also has a Christian / Biblical meaning and is the color for divinity and God’s Glory, gold is the refection of heavenly light. It is most often used with white. White in traditional European sense is used in Marriage and on the other hand in China the color white is used at a funeral – being death related.
In the marriage marquee rows of fragile golden chairs set on either side of a long purple carpet. The supporting poles were entwined with white and gold flowers. Purple has been used to symbolize magic and mystery, as well as symbol of royalty. Being the combination of red and blue, the warmest and coolest colors, purple is believed to be the ideal color. Most children love the color purple. Purple is the color most favored by artists. Back to Gold is universally likened to the sun, due to its color, but can also represent love, life or well being. We notice this in Xenophilius and Luna Lovegood’s robes their egg yolk yellow color attire Luna says her father likes sun colors at weddings, she wears a large sunflower in her hair also sun colors for luck, you know. A flowing river of gold turning into the dance floor. Mr. Lovegood wears the “eye” symbol on a gold chain. The chain symbolizes the bond witch connects heaven to earth Wedding rings are traditionally made of gold I do not remember reading if Bill and Fleur exchanged rings.
The alchemists promoted gold in their experiments with metals and laid a foundation for today’s chemistry field of studies The alchemist’s symbol for gold was the drawing of a circle with a point at its center. If you view only the upturned Triangle in the Deathly Hallows symbol this was used by the alchemists representing Fire. Fire-burning and refining and purifying Harry getting him ready for what is to come.
Great post, Red Rocker! I enjoyed your depiction of the camera moving through the various conversations at the wedding, and the contrast between Doge’s & Aunt Muriel’s emotional tones.
R. Ross, really interesting historical notes on the twins’ names!
Janet, I’ll take door #2. I think Dumbledore was too invested in hiding his past to mention Godric’s Hollow to Harry. This may not have been rational, but even a casual comment could have brought him too close to the pain he tried so hard to avoid. That’s just my take on him. Obviously JKR and Dumbledore himself leave a lot open to interpretation with this character.
Red Rocker, very nice run through of this chapter. I would disagree with you on various particulars regarding Dumbledore but we wouldn’t be too far off from each other. So, I’ll disagree on something bound to cause dissension & then disappear out of town for a few days.
You said, “I meant that Harry would find it intensely annoying that Krum could for a moment imagine that Ginny was available. Sexist of him, I know, but after all, he is the Chosen One.”
Sexist? Perhaps…if one is going to classify every boorish & foolish thing a man does as sexist. Let’s take a little look at where Harry & Ginny’s relationship stands. At the end of HBP Harry breaks up with Ginny, according to his stated reasons, to protect her from being attacked by Voldemort in order to get at Harry. Whether one agrees or disagrees with his action, this is his stated belief, & since we’re seeing things from Harry’s point of view, probably accurate in regard to his feelings.
Not much more than a month later, Harry shows up at the Burrow & sees Ginny again. One of the first things they do is hold hands, an action initiated by Ginny, while waiting for the others to arrive after the Death Eater attack. Later, Ginny kisses Harry on his birthday. Then at the wedding Harry expresses jealousy over Krum’s attentions at Ginny. However, we also see his feelings for Ginny conflicted because he sees his future options as limited, either murder or be murdered, & he realizes that Ginny’s options are open.
So, what we see are two teen-agers who are in a very confused state towards each other. Technically they are broken up, done by Harry, but neither has moved on because it’s not a real break up, it’s a charade. Whether one agrees with it or not, this is what Harry’s going with. But Ginny’s not acting as if they’re broken up. Harry’s trying to keep up the pretense of a break up but not pulling it off very well.
The end is literally in sight. There might not be a tomorrow. But Harry’s still in love with Ginny. So, he’s conflicted. He wants to be with her but feels that he can’t be, whether we agree with him or not, this is how Harry feels. I can hear Obi Wan Kenobi saying to Luke, “Bury your feelings deep, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor.”
Has the Emperor, I mean Voldemort, ever used Harry’s feelings against him before? And has someone that Harry loved been hurt as a result of this? Would it be reasonable to assume that Harry might think this would happen again & that he doesn’t want someone he loves to die but that he also doesn’t want to lose the girl he loves to someone else in the meantime?
Do Harry’s feelings & actions necessarily make sense? No. But the last I knew people in love don’t necessarily have all their feelings in order nor always take the most sensible actions. Sure, we could reduce it all down to base sexism. We might even be right to do it. But I don’t think it’s the best reading of the text nor is it particularly fair or charitable to Harry.
Gosh revgeorge, I don’t see how what you just said is controversial at all. Makes perfect sense to me.
Red Rocker, I’m a little confused by what you said in the last paragraph of post 12. Are you shipping Hermione again, or is that a typo? Or maybe I’m more than a little confused.
No need to run out of town Red Rocker. Hermione wasn’t sexist when she was upset about Lavender – and Harry isn’t for his slight annoyance at Krum. Now if Harry went over and punched Krum in the nose and said “Git away from my woman!” Well then….
But he didn’t. Whenever someone I perceive as a potential threat eyes the man I love, the inner -me screams “Noooooooooo!” Not sexist at all – just the birds and the bees.
Joivre, that was me that’s going to run out of town. I do literally have to go out of town starting tomorrow & the following couple of days, so I won’t have a chance to respond very much after tonight. So, I thought it’d be a good thing to throw out something controversial, although apparently it isn’t, before leaving town.
Anyway, I perhaps am not giving Red Rocker a fair shake. Her comment may have just been a joke relating to some of the conversations we’ve had lately on the blog.
deacondon, I was more curious about the comment in the posting regarding Ron & Hermione working towards their “long-overdue union.” Now, that doesn’t sound like something the Red Rocker I’m familiar with would say! “Horribly mis-matched union.” “Completely incomprehensible union.” Those sort of things I could buy.
One more thought… Not even completely original, having heard Travis speak at Azkatraz…
Aunt Muriel bragged that her tiara is goblin-made and been in the family for centuries. This foreshadows the sword problem. Muriel’s comment is buried among many more obvious manifestations of prejudice. The reader (and Ron) notice and disagree with most of these. However, neither the reader nor Ron is conditioned to sympathize with goblins or consider their traditions or point of view. We need Hermione for that, later in the book.
Yeah, I was channelling the divine Ms. H. – or rather her film avatar, Ms. Watson. And yeah, I was trying to make a joke. And yeah, I do think that Ron and Ms. H are horribly, horribly mismatched. But since that is their destiny, and sooner or later they’re going to end up together, my thought was: get on with it already and stop taking up valuable plot time with your dithering. All of which is secondary to the main theme of the chapter, which is the further deconstruction of Albus Dumbledore.
Red Rocker said, “…since that is their destiny, and sooner or later they’re going to end up together, my thought was: get on with it already and stop taking up valuable plot time with your dithering.”
Cracked me up!
Red Rocker, I’ve been really behind and have not commented so far. But I at least want to say (if I don’t get further in), that I loved your really elegant post. The roving camera idea was brilliant and perfect for the chapter, showing how film-ready it is. The comments have been great, too.
For some time I have wondered what it is about the Harry Potter series that I find so enjoyable. I am a grandfather, and the New York Times (in its infinite wisdom) classifies the series as children’s books. In the past, I have had little or no interest in literary criticism. For instance, I had never heard of alchemy as a literary device. But when I discovered this web site a few weeks ago, I have been intrigued by all of the learned comments about the series.
I think one of the things about the books that I like is that most of the characters are believable human beings, with both good qualities and bad. Harry is courageous and persistent, but he has a temper that he can’t always control and he sometimes blurts out things that he shouldn’t (“You don’t have to say ’sir’ to me professor”). Ron is a faithful friend, despite being a little jealous of Harry, but he is rather insensitive and sometimes clueless. Hermione is quite brilliant and very perceptive, but at times she is a real nag. Exceptions to believable human beings are the senior Dursleys, who I think are caricatures. For instance, if they are as sensitive to public opinion as they seem to be, they would not have dressed Harry in such ill-fitting hand-me-down clothes for fear that the neighbors would think that they couldn’t afford to give him good clothes.
The above discussion is not on point with respect to the wedding scene, but since this is my first comment I wanted to mention these matters and to say how much I enjoy reading the posts and comments.
Welcome, Charlie!
You make an excellent point about Vernon and Petunia’s pretension gap. They are the height of parody and satire (see the Chapter 3 discussion). But as social aspirants, they have a curiously large hole in their thinking regarding Harry’s public appearance (and their public treatment of him). Well, logic has never been their strong suit.
The books are filled with oh-so-very human people, from the best of them to the one who tried hardest to dehumanize himself.
Charlie, in #24, I wish you will continue to jump into the various discussions and add to the opinions placed here. I know that I will never stop learning I will be adding to my enrichment of literature until the end. Good comments, yes “. . . the characters are believable human beings . . .” I second a welcome with Arabella Figg. The characters in the series are real, they make mistakes and they learn as they go and grow up, the same is true in our world children that have grown up with Harry, Ron and Hermione learn along with them (the trio) and find their way as well.
G’day Charlie.
Thanks for posting and make sure you continue to contribute. The more-the merrier. I think that as a grandfather you will have a special insights into the story that many of the younger contributers don’t have access to yet.
Welcome aboard.
Matthew
Let me welcome you, Charlie by engaging you in debate.
Agree that the Dursleys are caricatures, although I would apply that label to other HP characters as well, most contentiously to Molly, but also to Trelawney, Filch, Lavender, late-stage Voldemort, Crabbe and Goyle, Lockhart, and Mad Eye Moody. I actually think that JKR is a genius in drawing entertaining caricatures, and I’ve compared her to Dickens in this.
I have some mixed feelings about Petunia, however. We learn more about her than about her blustering bully of a husband. And what we learn shows her to be quite a conflicted character, pulled by competing motives almost to the point of emotional paralysis. She loves and envies her sister, wants desparately to go to Hogwarts and learn to be a witch, but does a complete 180 and opts to marry a man who doesn’t acknowledge magic even if it hits him in the head; she hates Harry, but shelters him in her home; and at the end of it all displays a knowledge of the fundamentals which shows how she’s been living a lie all along. That’s quite a lot of character development which lifts her beyond caricature status, I think. As well, late-stage Dudley is a more nuanced character than his earlier incarnation. He actually starts to do some thinking. A sea change for him, I think.
Red Rocker, I’m not sure that I feel qualified to engage in a full scale debate with you, but I will give you my take on some of the HP characters you mentioned:
I don’t think that Molly is a caricature; rather, she is an over-protective mother. Her actions, from sending a howler to Ron in CS to inventing chores for the trio to do to keep them apart so they can’t plan their quest in DH, stem from this aspect of her personality. While her behavior may be exaggerated, it is not so much as to make her unbelievable as a person.
In my opinion, Mad Eye Moody is a character (defined in a moment), but not a caricature. By “character” I mean “9. Informal. An odd, eccentric, or unusual person.” [Random House unabridged dictionary, second edition] We actually don’t see much of the real Mad Eye. He appears mostly in GOF, but the person there is actually polyjuiced Barty Couch, Jr., pretending to be Mad Eye.
I hadn’t thought of Lockhart. I agree that he is a caricature, especially as played by Kenneth Branagh in the movie. Ditto with Trelawny and Emma Thompson.
Voldemort to me is the personification of evil. Does that make him a caricature? I’m not sure. My dictionary defines “caricature”, in the sense we are using it here, as “1. a picture, description, etc., ludicrously exaggerating the peculiarities or defects of persons or things….” [Italics mine] I don’t think that his evil nature is so exaggerated that he becomes unbelievable as a person. There have been people in history just as evil as Voldemort (e.g., Hitler, Stalin, and serial killers such as the “BTK” killer).
What do you think about Umbridge? I was thinking of adding her as an example of a caricature because I don’t see how someone so mean and nasty could rise in an organization to such a high position.
Your comments about Petunia are well taken. Because we at least partially understand her bitterness does that keep her from becoming a caricature? I don’t know. I guess that we all have to make up our own minds about this.
I apologize for the wordiness of this comment.
Good points. I’d had many of the same thoughts about some of the characters you mentioned, before resolving the question in favour of caricature. I’d say that Molly is both believable and exaggerated, as some people are. The word histrionic comes to mind, as do the words out of control and over the top. And I definitely see Voldemort as a caricature of evil, not in the exaggerated sense, like Molly, but in the sense that he seems to be a stick figure, lacking any human qualities which we can relate to.
I also thought about Umbridge. And admittedly, her brand of sadistic evil is exaggerated. But perhaps it’s the way Staunton plays her that makes her seem quite real. More real than anyone else in the story, actually. Which probably explains the Oscar nomination.
Petunia? It’s not so much her bitterness, but the way she’s suspended between her contradictory impulses that acquits her from being an exaggerated one-dimensional character. For me anyways. Maybe it’s the acting again – but I keep waiting for her to break her silence and say something, because I do think she has a lot to say.
Anyways, I think that whether we see a character as realistic or a caricature is often a judgement call. I mean, someone (but not me) could make the argument that Lily Evans Potter is a caricature of saintly motherhood while her son is a caricature of an incorruptible hero.
Thanks for giving me the chance to discuss some interesting characters.
I still firmly believe that DD’s secrecy on this matter is truly rooted in the horror of violation–that which happened to his sister by the Muggles. Then add to it the manner of deaths that followed. This is the horror of which one cannot speak. And there really was no reason for Harry to know this.
Regarding Umbridge, she seemed authentic in the book, maniacally demonstrating (in a diagonal way) the Peter Principle: “In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence.” That her methods were overlooked, even approved by the Ministry, that she was kept and given even more authority, shows the depth of the Ministry’s corruption, evil and incompetence. I’m not sure if I consider her a caricature or not.
Petunia is, I think, a caricature until we learn her background; she then becomes a more sympathetic and conflicted person. Yet she, in action, stays true to her caricature nature until the end. She passed on a chance to redeem herself when she walked past Harry without a word.
I just wanted to add to the discussion about Umbridge. I don’t think it took Stuanton to make Umbridge seem real to me (although I think she is the best casting/book-to-movie character in the series). I remember when she first has Harry in detention – when she seems so eager for him to discover what her pen actually does. I don’t have the book with me at the moment, so I can’t quote, but when I think about that scene I still shudder. In fact, I sometimes find Umbridge to be almost scarier than Voldemort himself, because she proclaims to be on the ‘good’ side.
I think that with respect to her position as Fudge’s undersecretary and her appointment at Hogwarts, it is not the Ministry that overlooks/approves of her methods, but rather Fudge. I think that after he walks out of the hospital wing at the end of GoF, he tried to surround himself with those who would support him in suppressing Harry and DD.
Aerisflowers, I too find Umbridge to be quite sinister and chilling, more believable than LV. However, Scrigmgeour was appointed Minister between OotP and HBP, and he kept her on. I’m sure she took advantage of his death and the appointment of Thicknesse, but Scrimgeour should have booted her..
Arabella, yes, you are absolultely right, Scrimgeour should have booted Umbridge. I must admit that I was surprised to see her in such a position of power in DH (not surprised at what she was doing, but surprised that she was even still around after what she did at Hogwarts). I have always imagined that she was shunted to some lowly job during Scrimgeour’s time as Minister, but then, as you said, she took advantage of the situation to become so powerful when the MoM fell into LV’s control.
I was able to finally sit down & thoroughly read your post, Red Rocker. Very good stuff.
Regarding the conversation between Muriel & Doge, well, it becomes obvious as we read further in the book that they only ever had part of the story. Now, this is not to say that because some people only have part of the story, therefore nobody can ever know the story at all. No, it’s just a lot harder work than people usually are willing to go to in order to find out the truth. And then there’s the whole question of whether or not people need to know the truth. Muriel as a gossip doesn’t really need to know nor would it probably matter to her if she did. Doge, on the other hand, as Dumbledore’s friend should be more concerned with knowing the truth so that he can more responsibly defend Dumbledore & tell people the whole story rather than the bits & pieces that have leaked out. Instead all he does is a hagiography.
And then there’s Harry. What does Harry need to know? Does he really need to know anything & everything about DD’s life? Well, we see that not knowing at first causes him great doubt & uncertainty & eventually he loses his faith in DD. But in the end knowing & not knowing doesn’t lead him back to faith, trust does. He trusts DD even though he doesn’t know everything.
Red Rocker wrote: “And this, I believe is one of the basic things about Dumbledore: his refusal to share even the smallest thing about himself. Interpret that as you will – and I will not interpret it for you – Dumbledore will not share even the smallest piece of truth about himself with Harry, whom he loves.”
Actually, I think your last sentence is an interpretation on its own, but that’s neither here nor there, I guess. Anyway, of course, it’s one of the basic things about Dumbledore, his intense secrecy & his partial truths. Secrets & lies, as Aberforth (may his ale never grow stale) rightly puts it. But that’s also not the whole of the story either, as we’ve debated many times.
And also I think you are mistaken in that DD never shares the smallest thing about himself with Harry. It’s a very important thing & it expresses childlike trust & love in Harry. Perhaps someone on here can tell me what it is. My only hint: It is found in Half-Blood Prince & it’s left out of the HBP movie.
revgeorge, I think that the answer to your question: what does Harry need to know, is given later on:
‘Harry, I’m sorry, but I think the real reason you’re so angry is that Dumbledore never told you any of this himself.’
‘Maybe I am!’ Harry bellowed, and he flung his arms over his head, hardly knowing whether he was trying to hold in his anger or protect himself from the weight of his own disillusionment. ‘Look what he asked from me, Hermione! Risk your life, Harry! And again! And again! And don’t expect me to explain everything. Just trust me blindly, trust that I know what I’m doing, trust me even though I don’t trust you! Never the whole truth! Never!’
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Back to Doting Doge for a minute. It just occurred to me that all his “I knew Dumbledore!” business reminds me very much of Slughorn’s “but I knew him!” proclamations about Snape. Both thought themselves privileged to be “insiders.” It’s obvious that Doge knew only what DD wanted him to know. Both DD and Snape, master illusionists, great secret-keepers.
While I very much see your point, Red Rocker, and agree that DD’s secrecy was very disillusioning to Harry, in the end Harry chose to go by faith and I think he became stronger for it. Does this justify DD’s secrecy? Not really; he admits his many failings at King’s Cross. Yet Harry loves him none the less. The better man, indeed.
I thought perhaps Doge knew more about Dumbledore’s family than he told. His reaction to Rita Skeeter and Aunt Muriel reminds me of Harry in OotP, who can’t bear to hear Dumbledore speak ill of Sirius (even if its the truth).