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	<title>Comments on: Chapter 8: Conversations at a Wedding</title>
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	<description>Harry Potter News and Commentary</description>
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		<title>By: miles365</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452510</link>
		<dc:creator>miles365</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I thought perhaps Doge knew more about Dumbledore&#039;s family than he told.  His reaction to Rita Skeeter and Aunt Muriel reminds me of Harry in OotP, who can&#039;t bear to hear Dumbledore speak ill of Sirius (even if its the truth).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought perhaps Doge knew more about Dumbledore&#8217;s family than he told.  His reaction to Rita Skeeter and Aunt Muriel reminds me of Harry in OotP, who can&#8217;t bear to hear Dumbledore speak ill of Sirius (even if its the truth).</p>
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		<title>By: Arabella Figg</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452480</link>
		<dc:creator>Arabella Figg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 04:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=2983#comment-452480</guid>
		<description>Back to Doting Doge for a minute. It just occurred to me that all his &quot;I knew Dumbledore!&quot; business reminds me very much of Slughorn&#039;s &quot;but I knew him!&quot; proclamations about Snape. Both thought themselves privileged to be &quot;insiders.&quot; It&#039;s obvious that Doge knew only what DD wanted him to know. Both DD and Snape, master illusionists, great secret-keepers.

While I very much see your point, Red Rocker, and agree that DD&#039;s secrecy was very disillusioning to Harry, in the end Harry chose to go by faith and I think he became stronger for it. Does this justify DD&#039;s secrecy? Not really; he admits his many failings at King&#039;s Cross. Yet Harry loves him none the less. The better man, indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back to Doting Doge for a minute. It just occurred to me that all his &#8220;I knew Dumbledore!&#8221; business reminds me very much of Slughorn&#8217;s &#8220;but I knew him!&#8221; proclamations about Snape. Both thought themselves privileged to be &#8220;insiders.&#8221; It&#8217;s obvious that Doge knew only what DD wanted him to know. Both DD and Snape, master illusionists, great secret-keepers.</p>
<p>While I very much see your point, Red Rocker, and agree that DD&#8217;s secrecy was very disillusioning to Harry, in the end Harry chose to go by faith and I think he became stronger for it. Does this justify DD&#8217;s secrecy? Not really; he admits his many failings at King&#8217;s Cross. Yet Harry loves him none the less. The better man, indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Rocker</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452472</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Rocker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=2983#comment-452472</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;revgeorge&lt;/b&gt;, I think that the answer to your question: what does Harry need to know, is given later on:

&lt;i&gt;&#039;Harry, I&#039;m sorry, but I think the real reason you&#039;re so angry is that Dumbledore never told you any of this himself.&#039;

&#039;Maybe I am!&#039; Harry bellowed, and he flung his arms over his head, hardly knowing whether he was trying to hold in his anger or protect himself from the weight of his own disillusionment. &#039;Look what he asked from me, Hermione! Risk your life, Harry! And again! And again! And don&#039;t expect me to explain everything. Just trust me blindly, trust that I know what I&#039;m doing, trust me even though I don&#039;t trust you! Never the whole truth! Never!&#039;&lt;/i&gt;

Couldn&#039;t have said it better myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>revgeorge</b>, I think that the answer to your question: what does Harry need to know, is given later on:</p>
<p><i>&#8216;Harry, I&#8217;m sorry, but I think the real reason you&#8217;re so angry is that Dumbledore never told you any of this himself.&#8217;</p>
<p>&#8216;Maybe I am!&#8217; Harry bellowed, and he flung his arms over his head, hardly knowing whether he was trying to hold in his anger or protect himself from the weight of his own disillusionment. &#8216;Look what he asked from me, Hermione! Risk your life, Harry! And again! And again! And don&#8217;t expect me to explain everything. Just trust me blindly, trust that I know what I&#8217;m doing, trust me even though I don&#8217;t trust you! Never the whole truth! Never!&#8217;</i></p>
<p>Couldn&#8217;t have said it better myself.</p>
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		<title>By: revgeorge</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452468</link>
		<dc:creator>revgeorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=2983#comment-452468</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Red Rocker&lt;/b&gt; wrote: &quot;And this, I believe is one of the basic things about Dumbledore: his refusal to share even the smallest thing about himself. Interpret that as you will – and I will not interpret it for you – Dumbledore will not share even the smallest piece of truth about himself with Harry, whom he loves.&quot;

Actually, I think your last sentence is an interpretation on its own, but that&#039;s neither here nor there, I guess.  Anyway, of course, it&#039;s one of the basic things about Dumbledore, his intense secrecy &amp; his partial truths.  Secrets &amp; lies, as Aberforth (may his ale never grow stale) rightly puts it.  But that&#039;s also not the whole of the story either, as we&#039;ve debated many times.  

And also I think you are mistaken in that DD never shares the smallest thing about himself with Harry.  It&#039;s a very important thing &amp; it expresses childlike trust &amp; love in Harry.  Perhaps someone on here can tell me what it is.  My only hint: It is found in &lt;i&gt;Half-Blood Prince&lt;/i&gt; &amp; it&#039;s left out of the HBP movie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Red Rocker</b> wrote: &#8220;And this, I believe is one of the basic things about Dumbledore: his refusal to share even the smallest thing about himself. Interpret that as you will – and I will not interpret it for you – Dumbledore will not share even the smallest piece of truth about himself with Harry, whom he loves.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, I think your last sentence is an interpretation on its own, but that&#8217;s neither here nor there, I guess.  Anyway, of course, it&#8217;s one of the basic things about Dumbledore, his intense secrecy &amp; his partial truths.  Secrets &amp; lies, as Aberforth (may his ale never grow stale) rightly puts it.  But that&#8217;s also not the whole of the story either, as we&#8217;ve debated many times.  </p>
<p>And also I think you are mistaken in that DD never shares the smallest thing about himself with Harry.  It&#8217;s a very important thing &amp; it expresses childlike trust &amp; love in Harry.  Perhaps someone on here can tell me what it is.  My only hint: It is found in <i>Half-Blood Prince</i> &amp; it&#8217;s left out of the HBP movie.</p>
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		<title>By: revgeorge</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452465</link>
		<dc:creator>revgeorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 01:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=2983#comment-452465</guid>
		<description>I was able to finally sit down &amp; thoroughly read your post, &lt;b&gt;Red Rocker&lt;/b&gt;.  Very good stuff.  

Regarding the conversation between Muriel &amp; Doge, well, it becomes obvious as we read further in the book that they only ever had part of the story.  Now, this is not to say that because some people only have part of the story, therefore nobody can ever know the story at all.  No, it&#039;s just a lot harder work than people usually are willing to go to in order to find out the truth.  And then there&#039;s the whole question of whether or not people need to know the truth.  Muriel as a gossip doesn&#039;t really need to know nor would it probably matter to her if she did.  Doge, on the other hand, as Dumbledore&#039;s friend should be more concerned with knowing the truth so that he can more responsibly defend Dumbledore &amp; tell people the whole story rather than the bits &amp; pieces that have leaked out.  Instead all he does is a hagiography.  

And then there&#039;s Harry.  What does Harry need to know?  Does he really need to know anything &amp; everything about DD&#039;s life?  Well, we see that not knowing at first causes him great doubt &amp; uncertainty &amp; eventually he loses his faith in DD.  But in the end knowing &amp; not knowing doesn&#039;t lead him back to faith, trust does.  He trusts DD even though he doesn&#039;t know everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was able to finally sit down &amp; thoroughly read your post, <b>Red Rocker</b>.  Very good stuff.  </p>
<p>Regarding the conversation between Muriel &amp; Doge, well, it becomes obvious as we read further in the book that they only ever had part of the story.  Now, this is not to say that because some people only have part of the story, therefore nobody can ever know the story at all.  No, it&#8217;s just a lot harder work than people usually are willing to go to in order to find out the truth.  And then there&#8217;s the whole question of whether or not people need to know the truth.  Muriel as a gossip doesn&#8217;t really need to know nor would it probably matter to her if she did.  Doge, on the other hand, as Dumbledore&#8217;s friend should be more concerned with knowing the truth so that he can more responsibly defend Dumbledore &amp; tell people the whole story rather than the bits &amp; pieces that have leaked out.  Instead all he does is a hagiography.  </p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s Harry.  What does Harry need to know?  Does he really need to know anything &amp; everything about DD&#8217;s life?  Well, we see that not knowing at first causes him great doubt &amp; uncertainty &amp; eventually he loses his faith in DD.  But in the end knowing &amp; not knowing doesn&#8217;t lead him back to faith, trust does.  He trusts DD even though he doesn&#8217;t know everything.</p>
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		<title>By: aerisflowers</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452120</link>
		<dc:creator>aerisflowers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=2983#comment-452120</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Arabella&lt;/strong&gt;, yes, you are absolultely right, Scrimgeour should have booted Umbridge.  I must admit that I was surprised to see her in such a position of power in DH (not surprised at what she was doing, but surprised that she was even still around after what she did at Hogwarts).  I have always imagined that she was shunted to some lowly job during Scrimgeour&#039;s time as Minister, but then, as you said, she took advantage of the situation to become so powerful when the MoM fell into LV&#039;s control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Arabella</strong>, yes, you are absolultely right, Scrimgeour should have booted Umbridge.  I must admit that I was surprised to see her in such a position of power in DH (not surprised at what she was doing, but surprised that she was even still around after what she did at Hogwarts).  I have always imagined that she was shunted to some lowly job during Scrimgeour&#8217;s time as Minister, but then, as you said, she took advantage of the situation to become so powerful when the MoM fell into LV&#8217;s control.</p>
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		<title>By: Arabella Figg</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452118</link>
		<dc:creator>Arabella Figg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=2983#comment-452118</guid>
		<description>Aerisflowers, I too find Umbridge to be quite sinister and chilling, more believable than LV. However, Scrigmgeour was appointed Minister between OotP and HBP, and he kept her on. I&#039;m sure she took advantage of his death and the appointment of Thicknesse, but Scrimgeour should have booted her..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aerisflowers, I too find Umbridge to be quite sinister and chilling, more believable than LV. However, Scrigmgeour was appointed Minister between OotP and HBP, and he kept her on. I&#8217;m sure she took advantage of his death and the appointment of Thicknesse, but Scrimgeour should have booted her..</p>
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		<title>By: aerisflowers</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452117</link>
		<dc:creator>aerisflowers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=2983#comment-452117</guid>
		<description>I just wanted to add to the discussion about Umbridge.  I don&#039;t think it took Stuanton to make Umbridge seem real to me (although I think she is the best casting/book-to-movie character in the series).  I remember when she first has Harry in detention - when she seems so eager for him to discover what her pen actually does.  I don&#039;t have the book with me at the moment, so I can&#039;t quote, but when I think about that scene I still shudder.  In fact, I sometimes find Umbridge to be almost scarier than Voldemort himself, because she proclaims to be on the &#039;good&#039; side.

I think that with respect to her position as Fudge&#039;s undersecretary and her appointment at Hogwarts, it is not the Ministry that overlooks/approves of her methods, but rather Fudge.  I think that after he walks out of the hospital wing at the end of GoF, he tried to surround himself with those who would support him in suppressing Harry and DD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanted to add to the discussion about Umbridge.  I don&#8217;t think it took Stuanton to make Umbridge seem real to me (although I think she is the best casting/book-to-movie character in the series).  I remember when she first has Harry in detention &#8211; when she seems so eager for him to discover what her pen actually does.  I don&#8217;t have the book with me at the moment, so I can&#8217;t quote, but when I think about that scene I still shudder.  In fact, I sometimes find Umbridge to be almost scarier than Voldemort himself, because she proclaims to be on the &#8216;good&#8217; side.</p>
<p>I think that with respect to her position as Fudge&#8217;s undersecretary and her appointment at Hogwarts, it is not the Ministry that overlooks/approves of her methods, but rather Fudge.  I think that after he walks out of the hospital wing at the end of GoF, he tried to surround himself with those who would support him in suppressing Harry and DD.</p>
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		<title>By: Arabella Figg</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452100</link>
		<dc:creator>Arabella Figg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=2983#comment-452100</guid>
		<description>Regarding Umbridge, she seemed authentic in the book, maniacally demonstrating (in a diagonal way) the Peter Principle: &quot;In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence.&quot; That her methods were overlooked, even approved by the Ministry, that she was kept and given even more authority,  shows the depth of the Ministry&#039;s corruption, evil and incompetence. I&#039;m not sure if I consider her a caricature or not.

Petunia is, I think, a caricature until we learn her background; she then becomes a more sympathetic and conflicted person. Yet she, in action, stays true to her caricature nature until the end. She passed on a chance to redeem herself when she walked past Harry without a word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding Umbridge, she seemed authentic in the book, maniacally demonstrating (in a diagonal way) the Peter Principle: &#8220;In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence.&#8221; That her methods were overlooked, even approved by the Ministry, that she was kept and given even more authority,  shows the depth of the Ministry&#8217;s corruption, evil and incompetence. I&#8217;m not sure if I consider her a caricature or not.</p>
<p>Petunia is, I think, a caricature until we learn her background; she then becomes a more sympathetic and conflicted person. Yet she, in action, stays true to her caricature nature until the end. She passed on a chance to redeem herself when she walked past Harry without a word.</p>
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		<title>By: Professor L</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dh8-2983/comment-page-1/#comment-452040</link>
		<dc:creator>Professor L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 03:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=2983#comment-452040</guid>
		<description>I still firmly believe that DD&#039;s secrecy on this matter is truly rooted in the horror of violation--that which happened to his sister by the Muggles.   Then add to it the manner of deaths that followed.  This is the horror of which one cannot speak.  And there really was no reason for Harry to know this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still firmly believe that DD&#8217;s secrecy on this matter is truly rooted in the horror of violation&#8211;that which happened to his sister by the Muggles.   Then add to it the manner of deaths that followed.  This is the horror of which one cannot speak.  And there really was no reason for Harry to know this.</p>
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