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	<title>Comments on: Dr. Manhattan: &#8220;The Superman exists&#8230;&#8221;</title>
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	<description>Harry Potter News and Commentary</description>
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		<title>By: The Graphic Novel &#183; Dr. Manhattan: The Superman Exists and He&#8217;s Human</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-452045</link>
		<dc:creator>The Graphic Novel &#183; Dr. Manhattan: The Superman Exists and He&#8217;s Human</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 03:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-452045</guid>
		<description>[...] further. While searching for more in-depth character analysis of Dr. Manhattan, I came across this blog post by Dave Jones on thehogshead.org (which is primarily a Harry Potter blogging site, but still a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] further. While searching for more in-depth character analysis of Dr. Manhattan, I came across this blog post by Dave Jones on thehogshead.org (which is primarily a Harry Potter blogging site, but still a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Bones</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-447183</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Bones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 20:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-447183</guid>
		<description>Dave,

I see what you mean in that Moore was primarily concerned with the weight of moral perspectives and how they are shaped, if not determined, by personal vantage point and not so much with theologically-motivated philosophical conundrums.

However, whether direct or indirect, Moore does highlight a good query: How could a being so far more advanced than ourselves truly relate to us? After all, the only thing tethering DM to mankind is, as you said, his being a former human. Had DM always existed the way he does, he would not identify with humanity in any recognizable form. 

In regards to society&#039;s relationship with such a being, it is clear that Moore suggests that society&#039;s relationship with DM would be very similar to its current relationship with God, driven by self interest and utitlity-based.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>I see what you mean in that Moore was primarily concerned with the weight of moral perspectives and how they are shaped, if not determined, by personal vantage point and not so much with theologically-motivated philosophical conundrums.</p>
<p>However, whether direct or indirect, Moore does highlight a good query: How could a being so far more advanced than ourselves truly relate to us? After all, the only thing tethering DM to mankind is, as you said, his being a former human. Had DM always existed the way he does, he would not identify with humanity in any recognizable form. </p>
<p>In regards to society&#8217;s relationship with such a being, it is clear that Moore suggests that society&#8217;s relationship with DM would be very similar to its current relationship with God, driven by self interest and utitlity-based.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave the Longwinded</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-447016</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave the Longwinded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-447016</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Jim Bones&lt;/b&gt;, I don&#039;t know if I would go quite that far.  In mainstream comics/graphic novels, Dr. Manhattan was fairly unique as a depiction of the human-become-god.  Even now, in this darker era of comic book heroes, comics are overflowing with highly idealized god-like characters who synthesize the best of humanity and the divine.  So, I don&#039;t think I would agree that comic book readers understand something that others don&#039;t &lt;i&gt;vis-a-vis&lt;/i&gt; &quot;God&#039;s viewpoint on humanity.&quot;  

And ultimately, it&#039;s also debatable if it&#039;s DM&#039;s god-like attributes or his human qualities that bear the brunt of Moore&#039;s critique.  Yes, he&#039;s godlike in his abilities.  But, it&#039;s his coldly material rationality/ethics that makes him truly chilling.  I don&#039;t think DM is so much a critique of religion, faith, or God as much he&#039;s a critique of human frailties in the hands of someone with too much power.  Think of him as perhaps a parallel to Moore&#039;s version of Richard M. Nixon.  

Not only is Moore&#039;s indictment of putting godlike abilities in human hands (&lt;i&gt;a la&lt;/i&gt; a lot of mainstream superheroes), but he&#039;s also a device for Moore to explore a society&#039;s relationship with such a being.  He&#039;s what is held up as the ideal hero in American culture: i.e. a weapon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Jim Bones</b>, I don&#8217;t know if I would go quite that far.  In mainstream comics/graphic novels, Dr. Manhattan was fairly unique as a depiction of the human-become-god.  Even now, in this darker era of comic book heroes, comics are overflowing with highly idealized god-like characters who synthesize the best of humanity and the divine.  So, I don&#8217;t think I would agree that comic book readers understand something that others don&#8217;t <i>vis-a-vis</i> &#8220;God&#8217;s viewpoint on humanity.&#8221;  </p>
<p>And ultimately, it&#8217;s also debatable if it&#8217;s DM&#8217;s god-like attributes or his human qualities that bear the brunt of Moore&#8217;s critique.  Yes, he&#8217;s godlike in his abilities.  But, it&#8217;s his coldly material rationality/ethics that makes him truly chilling.  I don&#8217;t think DM is so much a critique of religion, faith, or God as much he&#8217;s a critique of human frailties in the hands of someone with too much power.  Think of him as perhaps a parallel to Moore&#8217;s version of Richard M. Nixon.  </p>
<p>Not only is Moore&#8217;s indictment of putting godlike abilities in human hands (<i>a la</i> a lot of mainstream superheroes), but he&#8217;s also a device for Moore to explore a society&#8217;s relationship with such a being.  He&#8217;s what is held up as the ideal hero in American culture: i.e. a weapon.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Bones</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-447010</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Bones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-447010</guid>
		<description>Here I am thinking I&#039;m the only one appreciating the  metaphorical depth of The Watchmen...

There are many aspects of the story that intrigue me, including Moore&#039;s apparent awareness of the world&#039;s depressing cyclical pattern of massive de-population that follows massive overpopulation, but I am compelled to make note of something. 

DM&#039;s perspective of humanity and existence as a whole is an obvious metaphor for what a god-like being&#039;s would be,  but yet if present in a typical human being, (like Veidt&#039;s for instance), would be considered amoral and/or evil. 

I suppose what I&#039;m asking is this: why is it that comic book readers are able to immediately grasp the profound inconsitency of what a supposed God&#039;s viewpoint on humanity would be with his supposed purity, but the rest of modern man cannot?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here I am thinking I&#8217;m the only one appreciating the  metaphorical depth of The Watchmen&#8230;</p>
<p>There are many aspects of the story that intrigue me, including Moore&#8217;s apparent awareness of the world&#8217;s depressing cyclical pattern of massive de-population that follows massive overpopulation, but I am compelled to make note of something. </p>
<p>DM&#8217;s perspective of humanity and existence as a whole is an obvious metaphor for what a god-like being&#8217;s would be,  but yet if present in a typical human being, (like Veidt&#8217;s for instance), would be considered amoral and/or evil. </p>
<p>I suppose what I&#8217;m asking is this: why is it that comic book readers are able to immediately grasp the profound inconsitency of what a supposed God&#8217;s viewpoint on humanity would be with his supposed purity, but the rest of modern man cannot?</p>
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		<title>By: Red Rocker</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-419520</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Rocker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-419520</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;BIGBOY&lt;/b&gt;, what you suggest is another possible solution to the dilemma. It may or may not be feasible (we don&#039;t know the limits of Dr. M&#039;s ability to replicate himself) but it is certainly a peaceful and positive solution. My own suggestion that Dr. M. should simply annhilate the nukes was another peaceful solution.

Obviously, however, Moore was not trying to generate peaceful solutions. His view of the world - and of mankind - is a very bleak view, where people are frequently motivated by selfish and destructive goals and use destructive means, and where there are no happy endings. Only breaks in the misery and despair. From that world view, Veidt&#039;s solution would be horrible and yet in keeping with the nature of mankind: the only way we can stop killing each other is through the death of millions. And even that only buys us a little window of peace before the next war.

That&#039;s why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>BIGBOY</b>, what you suggest is another possible solution to the dilemma. It may or may not be feasible (we don&#8217;t know the limits of Dr. M&#8217;s ability to replicate himself) but it is certainly a peaceful and positive solution. My own suggestion that Dr. M. should simply annhilate the nukes was another peaceful solution.</p>
<p>Obviously, however, Moore was not trying to generate peaceful solutions. His view of the world &#8211; and of mankind &#8211; is a very bleak view, where people are frequently motivated by selfish and destructive goals and use destructive means, and where there are no happy endings. Only breaks in the misery and despair. From that world view, Veidt&#8217;s solution would be horrible and yet in keeping with the nature of mankind: the only way we can stop killing each other is through the death of millions. And even that only buys us a little window of peace before the next war.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why.</p>
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		<title>By: BIGBOY</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-419509</link>
		<dc:creator>BIGBOY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:30:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-419509</guid>
		<description>If, as in the movie, the true reason for war is a quest for power (in the sense of energy, not political power), and DM was working with Veidt to develope a power supply with the same source as DM, so that it would be endless, and DM is able to replicate himself without any apparent decline in power for each copy, why not just make as many copies of DM as are needed by every person, and the problem is solved?  If there are a billion people, make a billion copies of DM so that each person can command their own personal DM to do as they please, have as much power as they need, etc...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If, as in the movie, the true reason for war is a quest for power (in the sense of energy, not political power), and DM was working with Veidt to develope a power supply with the same source as DM, so that it would be endless, and DM is able to replicate himself without any apparent decline in power for each copy, why not just make as many copies of DM as are needed by every person, and the problem is solved?  If there are a billion people, make a billion copies of DM so that each person can command their own personal DM to do as they please, have as much power as they need, etc&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: revgeorge</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-418902</link>
		<dc:creator>revgeorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-418902</guid>
		<description>I was a big comic book geek back in the day.  I still have several hundreds of them down in my basement that I need to get on eBay.  I&#039;ve just never read Watchmen before &amp; still haven&#039;t had the time to read it.  

But at least in my case the worlds of sci-fi &amp; fantasy do intersect quite heavily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was a big comic book geek back in the day.  I still have several hundreds of them down in my basement that I need to get on eBay.  I&#8217;ve just never read Watchmen before &amp; still haven&#8217;t had the time to read it.  </p>
<p>But at least in my case the worlds of sci-fi &amp; fantasy do intersect quite heavily.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Rocker</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-418876</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Rocker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 01:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-418876</guid>
		<description>Well &lt;b&gt;Dave&lt;/b&gt;, you now know exactly how much intersection there is between the world of comic book fans and Potter fans: almost none.

Funny that; I would have thought there would be more, given how both universes are niche-breakers. &lt;i&gt;Watchmen&lt;/i&gt; transcended comics to make it into mainstream sci-fi and Potter transcended kid lit to make it into mainstream fantasy. And they both have messages to convey that  takes them a fair distance into mainstream mainstream.

Maybe the answer is that the worlds of fantasy and sci-fi do &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; intersect?

I enjoyed the posts, btw. I&#039;m hoping you have a few more in you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well <b>Dave</b>, you now know exactly how much intersection there is between the world of comic book fans and Potter fans: almost none.</p>
<p>Funny that; I would have thought there would be more, given how both universes are niche-breakers. <i>Watchmen</i> transcended comics to make it into mainstream sci-fi and Potter transcended kid lit to make it into mainstream fantasy. And they both have messages to convey that  takes them a fair distance into mainstream mainstream.</p>
<p>Maybe the answer is that the worlds of fantasy and sci-fi do <i>not</i> intersect?</p>
<p>I enjoyed the posts, btw. I&#8217;m hoping you have a few more in you.</p>
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		<title>By: revgeorge</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-418574</link>
		<dc:creator>revgeorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-418574</guid>
		<description>Randy,

I mean they are not abstract principles in the sense of being merely theoretical.  As if they were disconnected from the world or from concrete reality.  Truth, justice, &amp; love are very real things &amp; have real world impact.  In a sense they are abstract but that&#039;s not all they are nor do they remain in the realm of abstractness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randy,</p>
<p>I mean they are not abstract principles in the sense of being merely theoretical.  As if they were disconnected from the world or from concrete reality.  Truth, justice, &amp; love are very real things &amp; have real world impact.  In a sense they are abstract but that&#8217;s not all they are nor do they remain in the realm of abstractness.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/dr-manhattan-the-superman-exists-1809/comment-page-1/#comment-418572</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1809#comment-418572</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read or seen Watchmen, though I have been enjoying Dave&#039;s posts and will probably do so soon. I&#039;m curious about one of &lt;strong&gt;revgeorge&lt;/strong&gt;&#039;s comment and thought it deserved a little fleshing out; it seems incredibly relevant to what Watchmen is trying to say.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I would argue that truth &amp; justice are not abstract principles, just as love is not an abstract principle.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If they are not abstract principles, what are they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read or seen Watchmen, though I have been enjoying Dave&#8217;s posts and will probably do so soon. I&#8217;m curious about one of <strong>revgeorge</strong>&#8217;s comment and thought it deserved a little fleshing out; it seems incredibly relevant to what Watchmen is trying to say.</p>
<blockquote><p>I would argue that truth &amp; justice are not abstract principles, just as love is not an abstract principle.</p></blockquote>
<p>If they are not abstract principles, what are they?</p>
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