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Dumbledore in Deathly Hallows

by Travis Prinzi on July 23, 2007

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  • Spoiler Alert!

If you’ve been following this blog over the past year, you probably thought I’d really hate what Rowling did with Dumbledore in Deathly Hallows. I don’t. I hate what I know Fandom is about to do to him, but I’m quite pleased with what we learned in Book 7.

The Dumbledore backstory was the best and most unexpected aspect of Deathly Hallows, apart from Harry’s death/resurrection, of course. I was quite pleased with the way Rowling handled this. I’ll discuss the development of the backstory a bit, and then do some analysis of who Dumbledore truly was, and why I esteem him even more highly than before.

Hagiography vs Slander: Elphias Doge vs Rita Skeeter

Doge’s article in the Daily Prophet is what we might call “Hagiography.” He was writing a perfect saint out of Dumbledore, when indeed the man was quite flawed. One cannot be too harsh on Doge: it was a memorial article in the newspaper. Not the place to drag old secrets out of the closet and skewer the poor old man. But it’s fairly obvious that Doge was completely enamored with Dumbledore, to the point of ignoring his flaws and idolizing him.

Skeeter, on the other hand, did her typical hatchet job on Dumbledore. While she uncovered some facts, her (un)trusty “Quick Quote Quill” spilled its spin onto the page, twisting facts and creating scandal, ready the ruin the reputation of a great man. I have to admit to a private pleasure in watching Rowling put the old “Manipulative!Dumbledore” line, so often repeated by folks in fandom, into the hands of “that cow.”

I was quite shocked to realize, reading these two misguided versions of Dumbledore in chapter 2, that this book really was going to center around the character of Dumbledore.

Dumbledore’s Flaws and Harry’s Development

The central crisis for Harry was the character of Dumbledore. If Harry had spent all of the previous year becoming “Dumbledore’s man through and through,” did he still want to be? The answer to this is significant, and it needs to guide our analysis of what Rowling was doing with Dumbledore: The answer was, yes, after learning everything about Dumbledore, at the end of the story, Harry wanted to remain Dumbledore’s man through and through.

That’s significant, because Dumbledore’s critics are going to feel vindicated by Deathly Hallows, and I don’t think that will be the best reading. But we’ll get back there.

Harry wrestles throughout with the question of Dumbledore, and the decisive moment comes at Dobby’s death. This is incredibly significant, because it was Dumbledore, back in Chapter 37 of Order, who insisted that house-elves have been mistreated by Wizards for centuries. The Kreacher and Dobby subplots highlight the fact that Harry finally took this lesson to heart. It is while burying Dobby that Harry decides to go through with Dumbledore’s plan, to see it through to the end, to trust Dumbledore. Two key quotes come to mind that I believed, after the release of Half-Blood Prince, were an interpretive key to the series:

  • “If we can’t trust Dumbledore, who can we trust?” ~ Hermione
  • “It comes down to whether or not you trust Dumbledore’s judgment. I do; therefore, I trust Severus.” ~ Lupin

And it really did come down to whether or not Harry trusted Dumbledore. After severe doubt and anger, Harry chose to trust Dumbledore, and everything Dumbledore set into motion was the right move. Only one part, the passing of the Elder Wand to Snape, failed – and that, by the way, highlights just how surprised Dumbledore was to be forced to finish his part of the plot on the Tower. It was earlier than he had expected. This is helpful in understanding why there were certain bits of information that Dumbledore had not yet passed on to Harry, such as how to destroy a horcrux. He planned to show him how to destroy the locket.

We may also be able to draw some parallels between Harry’s flaws and Dumbledore’s flaws. They are different, to be sure. Harry was never tempted in the same way Dumbledore was; but it was mentioned a few times by Dumbledore that the potential was there. Leaving the Resurrection Stone in the forest was a good idea, after all.

I’m grasping for an explanation for the use of unforgivables by Harry. Could it be that Rowling wanted to show us that the best of the good guys are deeply flawed? Harry went on and on about how Dumbledore was “our age” when he began flirting with an oppressive worldview, but Harry instinctively fired several Unforgivable curses at the same age.* Harry and Albus: our flawed heroes.

Dumbledore and Grindelwald

This was tremendously done! I think it’s probably fair to say that, hagiography or not, Doge was right to have called this battle one of the greatest wizarding duels of all time. Dumbledore, the most skilled wizard of the age vs. Grindelwald, owner of the Elder Wand. I wish we knew how Dumbledore did it; I thought the Elder Wand was unbeatable. But one does wonder whether or not Dumbledore’s love for Grindelwald played a role in his defeat, and subsequently a role in Dumbledore’s belief that love is the greatest imaginable power against the Dark Arts.

Grindelwald was a wiser man that Voldemort, and watching Grindelwald taunt him and tell him how little he knew was a particularly joy. I get the impression that after his defeat at Dumbledore’s hands an many years in prison, Grindelwald may have been possessed of some degree of remorse.

Dumbledore’s Repentance

Dumbledore did not remain, for the rest of his life, the same man he was as a young wizard. He did not maintain the same ideas of Wizard domination; indeed, he actively fought against them for the rest of his life. In the words of Bob Dylan, his “repentance his plain.” There are several key indicators here:

  • He gave up his quest for the Hallows.
  • Even at 157 years old, when faced with his worst memory, he had to relive the death of his sister.
  • He avoided the position of Minister for the very purpose of staying as far away from his own sins as possible, to avoid the temptation to go there ever again.

Dumbledore remained a flawed man, and made many mistakes, some of which I’ve documented at this site in in the Hog’s Head PubCast before. His isolation was, in many ways, a problem: while he did trust people in their repentance and goodness, the brilliance of his own plans made it difficult, if not impossible, for him to trust others in the execution of those plans. [I do think we can find plenty of good reasons, however, that Dumbledore withheld information from certain people...but the lack of an "equal," as Rowling said, is what ultimately led to his "old man's mistakes" regarding his underestimation of Harry as young boy, which eventually resulted in Sirius's death.]

The most significant result of Dumbledore’s repentance is his ability to forgive others. “He who has been forgiven much, loves much,” Jesus said. Why did Dumbledore trust Snape? Well, yes, of course – because he believed in the overcoming power of love. But also because he knew, from his own experience, that it is possible to go from having very foolish, very dark, very evil ideas to a place of repentance and restoration.

Albus, Aberforth, and Ariana

Albus’s critics are going to be big fans of Aberforth. I am not. (Aside from the fact that he lets me use his pub for the podcast, of course). Many will see confirmation of their views in Aberforth’s words to Harry about Albus: “Secrets and lies, that’s how we grew up, and Albus…he was a natural” (p. 562, US). Well, sure, he was, and in many ways, our faults continue to tempt us and haunt us throughout our lives. Albus is good at lying when he needs to. He’s also brilliantly trustworthy if you have a secret that would destroy you. We simply can’t criticize Albus for keeping secrets about Snape from Harry; it was the right thing to do, because he had given Snape his word. But I don’t see Albus as a Master Manipulator.

The problem I have with Aberforth is that after almost 150 years, he continues to hold his grudge against Albus. Aberforth was absolutely correct about the awful things Albus did that resulted in Ariana’s death. But Albus knew it, too. Aberforth’s inability to forgive, his refusal to recognize Albus’s repentance, is troubling. Bitterness will cause despair, will eat someone alive. This is what has happened to Aberforth: “The Order of the Phoenix is finished. You-Know-Who’s won, it’s over, and anyone who’s pretending different’s kidding themselves” (p. 562).

The rest of the conversation is brilliant. Aberforth sets the record straight about Ariana, contradicting Doge’s silence and Skeeter’s spin. But Harry steps in and confronts Aberforth’s bitterness and what it’s done to him, arguing that Dumbledore was “never free” of guilt over Ariana’s death, and pushing Aberforth’s bitter pessimism right back in his face.

And it’s true that Albus was never free. It was his guilt over the death of Ariana that killed him, ultimately. When faced with the Resurrection Stone, a moment of weakness took over, and he wanted to see his parents and sister again. It was his deep remorse for what had happened that killed Albus Dumbledore that day. Good thing Severus was nearby.

Aberforth does come around, by the way, and joins in the final battle.

The Life and Love of Albus Dumbledore

For the life of me, I can’t figure out how not dragging all his family’s secrets out into the open is a lie.  It’s not a lie to not divulge information that is not asked for.  The Dumbledores’ family history is tragic, and it involves some pretty rough moments of sin, revenge, and pride.  But “love covers a multitude of sins,” and we all have a multitude that we would prefer covered.  Dumbledore is no different.  Perhaps there were moments in which Dumbledore actually lied about his family, but we never read about them in canon as far as I can remember.

Do you announce the failings of yourself and your family everywhere you go?  Or do you move on, trying to make things right, make a better future?

The Gleam of Triumph

The argument against Dumbledore usually has something to do with his being manipulative and callous about Harry, using him, even. I can’t imagine anything further from the truth. Dumbledore was resigned to the fate that was thrust upon Harry by Voldemort’s actions. Dumbledore cared very, very deeply for Harry, and saw nothing but tragedy ahead for the poor boy.

Put yourself in the shoes of Dumbledore at the end of Goblet of Fire. For 14 years, you’ve been watching over the boy whom you know will one day have to face Voldemort. For two years, you’ve known that in order to defeat Voldemort, Harry will have to die. Harry returns from the tragic rebirth of the Dark Lord, and he explains the manner of the blood transfer.

Hope rises in your heart. All is not lost: Harry may not have to die! Or, more accurately, death will not have a hold on him. After two years of carrying the burden of the knowledge that this innocent, suffering boy will have to die in order to rid the world of Voldemort, you now know that the distinct possibility, even probability, exists that Harry will survive. Gleam of triumph, indeed!

The Death of Dumbledore

The revelation of the “Stoppered Death” plot (or something very close to it) solidified the Christ-like truth about Dumbledore: He died for the protection of his would-be killer, Draco Malfoy. He died for his own enemy. Yes, he was going to die anyway, but he was prepared to be killed at a moment’s notice – taken by surprise on the tower, even – in order to save Draco. Perhaps one of the greatest lingering questions of Book 7 is, “What happened to Draco Malfoy?” Clearly, after the Tower in Book 6, his heart was no longer in service to Voldemort. I think Dumbledore’s mercy was a transforming factor in Draco’s life.

There’s so much more to analyze, and I’m certain the comments will be full of insightful observations, questions, and declarations of heresy, all of which will shed more light on the subject of Dumbledore and correct any errors I’ve made. The King’s Cross chapter deserves its own essay, but for now, I will conclude. I am thoroughly pleased with what Rowling has done with the character of Albus Dumbledore, the portrayal of him as a flawed but forgiven, repentant and restored man, and I look forward to your thoughts.

*I wish Rowling had provided some commentary on their use, some measure of regret, or a better explanation of what it means for a curse to be “unforgivable.” I disagree that the use of Imperius or Cruciatus tears the soul like the Killing Curse. It is specifically murder that tears the soul, not any unforgivable. So we could possibly conclude that the other two Unforgivables are named such by the Ministry, but their true evil lies in how and when they are used, just like any other curse, spell, jinx, or hex. I’m planning an essay on this issue for the near future.

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January 16, 2009 at 12:53 pm

{ 130 comments… read them below or add one }

Travis PrinziNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 3:27 pm

And not a world about manipulativeness.

What about forgiveness, in that situation, mandates that Harry recount all Dumbledore’s faults, rub salt in the wound, and then forgive?

Would that more of us were “automatically ready to forgive.”

that Dumbledore leaked the prophecy on purpose.

This has been beaten to death in other threads. I don’t buy it. There’s just no evidence of this. What was Dumbledore going to do, exactly? Restrain Snape forever? Lock him up somewhere?

reyhanNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 4:02 pm

I agree with Travis. When you forgive someone, you don’t need to catalogue all of their sins and then forgive them. It’s not necessary. You forgive from the heart; there is no accounting.

But if you do need a reference to some particular sin, then I think that the following exchange does this.

Dumbledore is talking about Voldemort and the Elder Wand. He says:

“‘… He believes that the Elder Wand removes his last weakness and makes him truly invincible. Poor Severus …’

‘If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end up with the Elde Wand, didn’t you?’

‘I admit that was my intention,’ said Dumbledore, ‘but it did not work our as I intended, did it?’

‘No,’ said Harry. ‘That bit didn’t work out.’”

There is a long pause, and Harry changes the subject.

I read Harry’s response as an example of ironic understatement, and as close to a direct criticism of Dumbledore as he ever gets.

I have already said that I dearly hope that Radcliffe will find in himself the acting skill to imbue that line with the clear but faint edge of irony which it requires.

Lone WolfNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 5:29 pm

“There’s just no evidence of this. What was Dumbledore going to do, exactly? Restrain Snape forever? Lock him up somewhere?”

Since he knew that Snape was a Death Eater at that time, of course he should have had Snape locked up!

Travis PrinziNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 5:32 pm

Since he knew that Snape was a Death Eater at that time, of course he should have had Snape locked up!

Did he, though? Did he know this for a fact at the time?

And there’s quite a bit we don’t know here. How do we know that in the moment’s pause after the door crashed open that Snape didn’t disapparate?

MiaNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 6:11 pm

I still don’t believe that Dumbledore leaked the prophesy on purpose. At that point, he didn’t know how much Snape had heard, how Voldemort would interpret the information and that it would eventually lead to his downfall. He wasn’t omniscient and he didn’t know until Snape came and told him. He had to ask Snape how much he had told Voldemort and then he did everything in his power to protect the Potters.

So I don’t think that the lives of innocent people didn’t matter to him. On the contrary, he was rather disgusted that they didn’t matter to Snape.

Travis PrinziNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 6:23 pm

Excellent points, Mia.

Lone WolfNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 6:24 pm

“Did he, though? Did he know this for a fact at the time?”

I’m not sure myself. How much time did pass between the Prophesy scene and the scene in Snape’s memories when he comes to Albus with the plea to save Lily?

“How do we know that in the moment’s pause after the door crashed open that Snape didn’t disapparate?”

And Trelawney failing to mentoin that colourful detail?

reyhanNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 6:25 pm

I think that people are trying to apply logic here when there’s a more important principle at work.

The story requires Voldemort to hear about the prophecy so he can try to kill Harry, and for Snape to inadvertantly betray Lily so he can spend the rest of his life trying to atone.

There is no need, storywise, for Dumbledore to “leak” the prophecy to Voldemort. Looked at another way, the story doesn’t require Dumbledore to be obscurely Machiavellian on this point.

I realize that my reasoning combines apples and oranges: the internal logic of the story and the external logic of the author, but I think it’s valid.

Travis PrinziNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 6:26 pm

And Trelawney failing to mentoin that colourful detail?

A good question…though she had only gotten to the point of revealing the snoop, and Harry didn’t give her any time to finish her story.

Travis PrinziNo Gravatar November 5, 2007 at 6:26 pm

reyhan, a valid point indeed. Well said.

Lone WolfNo Gravatar November 6, 2007 at 3:49 am

“Looked at another way, the story doesn’t require Dumbledore to be obscurely Machiavellian on this point”.

I agree that it doesn’t. However, the way it was presented it leaves the room for interpretaion.

Travis PrinziNo Gravatar November 6, 2007 at 8:29 am

However, the way it was presented it leaves the room for interpretaion.

I’m not sure it does. Dumbledore couldn’t have possibly known how much of the prophecy Snape heard in that moment. So it’s not very likely that he would have contrived a plan, right there in that moment, to leak only half the prophecy to Voldemort.

MiaNo Gravatar November 6, 2007 at 10:12 am

In my opinion, from Dumbledore’s first appearance in chapter one and his conversation with McGonagall to his final appearance in Kings Cross and his conversation with Harry, it is clear that Dumbledore didn’t leak the prophesy. Everything that Dumbledore said would have been a lie and Lily’s sacrifice would become almost meaningless.

Because I think, the very point of the story is that Voldemort was defeated by love and not by manipulation. Otherwise the bottom line would be that Dumbledore was simply a better schemer than even Voldemort, and it just doesn’t make sense.

reyhanNo Gravatar November 6, 2007 at 11:25 am

Lone Wolf,

You say that there is room for interpretation, ie. that Dumbledore schemed to let Voldemort hear the prophecy for the purpose of luring him to his doom.

In your comments you cite two pieces of evidence for this. The first one is negative evidence: the fact that Dumbledore didn’t stop Snape from taking the prophecy to Voldemort. While not doing something can sometimes be as significant as doing something, I think you’d need more evidence to conclude that this was a deliberate act of omission. After all, there are lots of things people fail to do, without it being significant. Your other point is that Dumbledore is a schemer in general, so he must have been scheming in this instance. Again, I think you’d need more evidence to conclude that this was an instance of scheming. Again, a man may be the world’s greatest schemer, without necessarily scheming every moment of the day.

You could argue that the prophecy and Snape’s overhearing it, with Snape’s known (or suspected?) allegiance to Voldemort were such significant events that Dumbledore ought to have done something to stop Snape. I could argue back that in real life, we don’t always know the full significance of an event until much later. I could also argue that there are many things Dumbledore ought to have done something about but didn’t that this one is not unusual. Dumbledore is not God, he is not omniscient, and he can not see the long term consequences of all of his moves.

Possible motive (destroy Voldemort) and a predisposing personality (manipulative) do not make a crime. We need the smoking gun. Or some tangible evidence. And I don’t see any.

Mary Jo NeyerNo Gravatar November 6, 2007 at 11:47 am

Dumbledore did not know the full import of the prophecy, and he did not know how much Snape had overheard. There are such things in life as accidental happenstance which shape important events in history, and I think, given the lack of any smoking gun, as Reyhan correctly states, we must consider Dumbldore as innocent on the charge of manipulation in this case.

reyhanNo Gravatar November 6, 2007 at 12:03 pm

And another point.

Dumbledore himself considered the prophecy of questionable worth. What made it significant was how Voldemort interpreted it, the action he took, Lily’s self-sacrifice, and Harry’s resulting transformation into Voldemort’s bane.

Not only did Dumbledore not bring these things about, they were things beyond the ability of anyone to bring about.

To this day, we don’t know if the prophecy was true, or if it was just a catalyst in setting off a chain of events which resulted in Voldemort’s destruction.

MiaNo Gravatar November 6, 2007 at 12:31 pm

I believe the prophecy was „true“ in the sense of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like in the classic stories of Macbeth or Oedipus. According to Wikipedia “a true prophetic statement — a prophecy declared as truth when it is not — may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the false prophecy.”

I think, that’s exactly what happened in HP. The prophecy wasn’t a prediction of future events, but when Voldemort heard of it, it appealed to his deepest fears that someone more powerful than himself would appear and defeat him. In trying to prevent it, he ultimately fulfilled the prophecy.

I’d say that this could only be known in retrospect and not in advance. Dumbledore said something to the effect that not all prophecies come true and that their fulfilment is a matter of human decisions. If prophecies cannot predict the future, neither could he and he couldn’t possibly have planned everything that would happen, especially since the events in Godric’s Hollow were supposed to be unprecedented in history.

Lone WolfNo Gravatar November 6, 2007 at 2:46 pm

“Bonaventura is correct: we’re supposed to cheer when Molly AK’s Bella. (Yes, I think it was an AK. It behaved like an AK)”.

No, no! It was a particular nasty version of Dish-Washing Spell!

“‘If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end up with the Elde Wand, didn’t you?’

‘I admit that was my intention,’ said Dumbledore, ‘but it did not work our as I intended, did it?’

‘No,’ said Harry. ‘That bit didn’t work out.’”

There is a long pause, and Harry changes the subject.

I read Harry’s response as an example of ironic understatement, and as close to a direct criticism of Dumbledore as he ever gets”.

Sorry, but I don’t really interpert it like that. I think it is just Harry thinking about Snape again. And yes, there is no reason to make a Catalogue Of A Person’s Sins to forgive him/her, but the way it was presented in a book I just don’t think Albus’ manipulativeness was effectively scorned upon.

“Dumbledore couldn’t have possibly known how much of the prophecy Snape heard in that moment”.

But he could have gussed Severus overheard some bit of it. Althrough I agree it does not necessary points to Albus as a manipulator in that case(he is not omnipotent and could have made a mistake after all).

Lone WolfNo Gravatar November 8, 2007 at 3:29 am

Another interesting phrase is Dumbledore’s “keep an eye on Quirell”. I wonder how much Dumbledore knew and what did he only suspect in the events of Harry’s first year.

reyhanNo Gravatar November 8, 2007 at 10:57 am

That’s an interesting question. I think we’re back to the difference between the internal logic of the story, and the external logic of the author.

The external logic requires that Harry have adventures, face peril, show his courage and ingenuity in defeating evil, and most importantly, wrestle with Voldemort in preparation for the final showdown. He has to be in danger, otherwise there would be no adventure, suspense or victory.

The internal logic of the story has Dumbledore as a wise and powerful wizard, perhaps the wisest and most powerful. That would strongly suggest that he would be able to detect Voldemort in Quirrell, Tom Riddle in the diary, know that Sirius Black was innocent and that Scabbers was Peter Pettigres, that Moody was stuck in the bottom of a trunk while Barty Crouch Jr took his place and rigged the Triwizard Tournament, and so on and so on. And knowing all this, would act to avert danger.

But of course if Dumbledore did prevent bad things from happening, there’d be no story: Harry wouldn’t get a chance to develop into the champion of the good side. And it would be a pretty dull story.

So the author has to somehow dodge the internal logic of the story so Harry can become a hero – and also so she can write a mystery/suspense/fantasy story that captures the imagination.

The result is that Dumbledore has to act less smart than we know him to be.

We have talked about this seeming contradiction before on these threads: the problem of the omniscient/omnipotent character. Superman would not have sold a lot of comic books if it weren’t for kryptonite.

Another way of dealing with the contradiction is by arguing that Dumbledore did know all these things, and deliberately did not act on them, letting Harry deal with Quirell/Voldemort, Tom Riddle, and Peter Pettigrew in order to give him the chance to earn his champion’s spurs. Similarly, we could argue that Dumbledore deliberately let the TriWizard Tournament carry on, knowing the outcome, because it was essential for Voldemort to get some of Harry’s blood in order for Harry to survive his necessary death. The “gleam of triumph” would support that theory.

I don’t support those arguments because there are too many reasons against them. First, they require that Dumbledore be able to predict the endpoint of events with God-like accuracy. And he’s just not that good. He has theories, and they’re pretty good, but they’re never certainties. Second, they require that he countenance placing a lot of people and creatures – not just Harry – in danger. I don’t think he’s written as being so cold blooded that he would knowingly let Cedric Diggory die. And finally, Dumbledore loves Harry. His conflict is whether he’s going to keep Harry safe or whether he’s going to let him know his destiny. I don’t think he would have deliberately placed Harry in danger – and risked his death – for anything less than the ultimate prize, which is Voldemort’s destruction.

What this comes down to is, I think Dumbledore is manipulative, but he’s not that manipulative.

Lone WolfNo Gravatar November 8, 2007 at 1:23 pm

“know that Sirius Black was innocent and that Scabbers was Peter Pettigrew”

I actually fail to realize how he could have known that.

And I enjoyed you external vs. internal logic argument, but them the question arises: why include that “keep an eye on Quirell” phrase in the story?

“I don’t support those arguments because there are too many reasons against them. First, they require that Dumbledore be able to predict the endpoint of events with God-like accuracy”.

I agree with you here. Besides, having one character as Master Uber-Manipulator and all the other characters as his puppets makes the story just, well… uninteresting.

reyhanNo Gravatar November 8, 2007 at 2:35 pm

I think that JKR has Dumbledore say that (”Keep and eye on Quirrell”) to show that he isn’t a complete nitwit. We are meant to see that he suspects something (wise wizard that he is).

To beat a concept to death: the internal logic dictates that DUmbledore not seem to be totally oblivious to what’s behind Quirrell’s turban. The external logic dictates that it has to be Harry who uncovers Voldemort behind the turban.

It’s flimsy. But no flimsier than many other children’s adventure stories which require incredible amounts of carelessness, verging on actual negligence, from otherwise loving and responsible parents, so that the children may have hair-raising adventures.

Lone WolfNo Gravatar November 8, 2007 at 2:41 pm

Actually, I tend to agree with you on that one, Reyhan.

And still, what a pity that Albus has (at least, partially) repented and stopped believing in elitist wizard – superiority views. He’d make a great villain – far better then that mediocre fellow caled Voldything.

Travis PrinziNo Gravatar November 8, 2007 at 3:07 pm

Lone Wolf, I think you’re actually on to something there. After DH was released, I said at Prophecy 2007 that in many ways, Grindelwald is a much more fascinating Bad Guy than Voldemort. Grindelwald thought what he was doing was right, which makes him a more believable Bad Guy to me. Voldemort only believed in power and selfishness.

reyhanNo Gravatar November 8, 2007 at 4:10 pm

Well, he at least appears to have been engaging and charming, which always makes for a more enjoyable villain, I find.

But people who believe what they’re doing is right can be very scary, e.g. Hitler and Pol Pot and Milosovic and from the other side of the aisle, our old friend Calvin and the Pope who ordered the Inquisition. And didn’t a lot of Kings and Queens order the deaths of people they consider heretics (but whom nowadays we’d consider Protestants) for the best of reasons? To save their souls?

And don’t be knocking old Snake Eyes. What I find fascinating about him is that one of the things which drives him – maybe the most important thing which drives him – is fear of death. How human is that?

But I like what Lone Wolf is suggesting too. Dumbledore would have made a great villain. And I don’t think he’d have that far to go. Imagine that he was one step ahead of Voldemort every step of the way. Imagine that he was the consummate puppet master, and deliberately let all those things we’ve mentioned happen on his watch. Imagine that he allowed Quirrell/Voldemort into Hogwarts, let Ginny use the diary to waken Tom Riddle, let Sirius Black spend 13 odd years in Azkaban, let Cedric Diggory die, etc, etc. All for a noble end, a good end: the defeat of Voldemort.

That would take us into pure LeCarre territory, where the spymasters on either side are more alike than not, and the spies are left wondering what is the cause they are fighting for when everything around them is cruel and corrupt.

Mary Jo NeyerNo Gravatar November 8, 2007 at 6:42 pm

One of JKR’s stated goals was to teach readers to question (or was it challenge?) authority. I think she does this in a very subtle manner by creating Dumbledore as a character who seems to be so wise, so good and so excellent at everything that some readers thought he was a symbol of God. I once got into a discussion with our pediatrician who had read the first four books and who thought D.was indeed a symbol of God.
Yet, as we Christians know,we all have sinned and have failings. Dumbledore’s failings are particularly interesting because they are not the sort of faults so often found in standard characters, but they are more like those of LeCarre’s spymasters, an analogy I had not thought of before Reyhan brought it up, but it is very good comparison. On one level JKR’s story portrays Dumbledore in a way that children can still see in an admiring way. How many children even know who Machiavelli is?
At the same time, adults can see the darker currents, appreciate the hidden manipulations, and see Dumbldedore as a much more shadowed character. The one authority we thought we could trust turns out to behave in ways that could be construed as sinister.

Mary Jo NeyerNo Gravatar November 8, 2007 at 6:45 pm

Travis, I agree with you that Grindelwald was a very interesting villain, more so than Voldemort, who reminded me at times of Snidely Whiplash-anyone remember him? He would wrap his cloak about himself and say something like, “Curses, foiled again!” I always felt that Lord V. sounded like Snidely when talking about Harry.

Lone WolfNo Gravatar November 9, 2007 at 1:45 am

“One of JKR’s stated goals was to teach readers to question (or was it challenge?) authority”.

Which is rather ironical thing, because in “Deathly Hallows” the main protagonist does everything on the orders of autority.

“Curses, foiled again!”

And don’t forget the line “I’d suceeded if not for these cursed children”!

reyhanNo Gravatar November 9, 2007 at 10:30 am

Lone Wolf,

I don’t think Harry did everything on the orders or authority. Rather, he thought about those orders long and hard (remember the interminable hanging around in tents? digging Dobby’s grave by hand?) and eventually decided that he was going to accept the course of action laid out for him by Dumbledore.

And as for the walk in the forest to his death, come on! A man reaches down into himself and finds the strength to walk alone to his death because it is the right thing to do and you say he was following orders?

No.

Lone WolfNo Gravatar November 9, 2007 at 11:58 am

“A man reaches down into himself and finds the strength to walk alone to his death because it is the right thing to do and you say he was following orders?”

He was displaying many qualities, and the ability to follow orders is one of them. Not the main one, but one of them.

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