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	<title>Comments on: Dumbledore, the Order of the Phoenix, and the Fabian Society</title>
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	<description>Harry Potter News and Commentary</description>
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		<title>By: HogwartsProfessor.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Mail Bag: GB Shaw Hat Tip in 'Deathly Hallows'?</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/fabian-society-post-160/comment-page-1/#comment-386423</link>
		<dc:creator>HogwartsProfessor.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Mail Bag: GB Shaw Hat Tip in 'Deathly Hallows'?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 02:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swordofgryffindor.com/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/#comment-386423</guid>
		<description>[...] a &#8220;sounds-like-therefore-must-be&#8221; bit of fallacious literary detective work is the link Travis Prinzi has made undeniable (after Colbert&#8217;s find) between members of the Order of the Phoenix and the Fabian Society of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a &#8220;sounds-like-therefore-must-be&#8221; bit of fallacious literary detective work is the link Travis Prinzi has made undeniable (after Colbert&#8217;s find) between members of the Order of the Phoenix and the Fabian Society of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: COMIC-HOW I WISH-DECEPTIVE-YES! &#171; uk1884</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/fabian-society-post-160/comment-page-1/#comment-356754</link>
		<dc:creator>COMIC-HOW I WISH-DECEPTIVE-YES! &#171; uk1884</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swordofgryffindor.com/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/#comment-356754</guid>
		<description>[...] http://thehogshead.org/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://thehogshead.org/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/" rel="nofollow">http://thehogshead.org/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Potter Prognostications &#187; Episode #52: Meet the New Wizards</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/fabian-society-post-160/comment-page-1/#comment-225537</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Potter Prognostications &#187; Episode #52: Meet the New Wizards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swordofgryffindor.com/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/#comment-225537</guid>
		<description>[...] Sword of Gryffindor on the Fabian Society. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sword of Gryffindor on the Fabian Society. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Carla Lute</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/fabian-society-post-160/comment-page-1/#comment-37735</link>
		<dc:creator>Carla Lute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swordofgryffindor.com/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/#comment-37735</guid>
		<description>&quot;In short, Dumbledore â€œmeans wellâ€ and has a lot of great ideas, but heâ€™s no good at influencing anyone or implementing those ideas. There are a few ways people have attempted to explain this apparent discrepancy between Dumbledoreâ€™s beliefs and his power.&quot;

I guess I&#039;d need to read the article, but this isn&#039;t what I got from the quote at all.  I mean Lincoln was a &quot;good president&quot;, but the country still had problems.  God is a &quot;good God&quot;, but the world is still corrupt.

Dumbledore is very interested in free will.  He might be powerful enough to *make* people do things his way, but to robb people of their free will would be a direct violation of what he sees as a basic definition of self.

I think that&#039;s one of the ways he mirrors God.  God *could* force us to all be perfect little robots, but with out free will our obedience holds no meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In short, Dumbledore â€œmeans wellâ€ and has a lot of great ideas, but heâ€™s no good at influencing anyone or implementing those ideas. There are a few ways people have attempted to explain this apparent discrepancy between Dumbledoreâ€™s beliefs and his power.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;d need to read the article, but this isn&#8217;t what I got from the quote at all.  I mean Lincoln was a &#8220;good president&#8221;, but the country still had problems.  God is a &#8220;good God&#8221;, but the world is still corrupt.</p>
<p>Dumbledore is very interested in free will.  He might be powerful enough to *make* people do things his way, but to robb people of their free will would be a direct violation of what he sees as a basic definition of self.</p>
<p>I think that&#8217;s one of the ways he mirrors God.  God *could* force us to all be perfect little robots, but with out free will our obedience holds no meaning.</p>
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		<title>By: Travis Prinzi</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/fabian-society-post-160/comment-page-1/#comment-13915</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis Prinzi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swordofgryffindor.com/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/#comment-13915</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the history, and also the clarification about Beatrix/Beatrice Potter.  My mistake.  

I&#039;ll look into the Emmeline Pankhurst stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the history, and also the clarification about Beatrix/Beatrice Potter.  My mistake.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll look into the Emmeline Pankhurst stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: AJ Hall</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/fabian-society-post-160/comment-page-1/#comment-13875</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 07:12:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swordofgryffindor.com/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/#comment-13875</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it is necessarily inconsistent with identifying the Order of the Phoenix with the Fabian Society to see it as a slightly comic, marginalised body which consists of a small group of individuals with high-minded (and slightly woolly) ideals and messed up, morally dubious personal practices.

Lenin, for example, referred to GBS as &quot;A good man fallen among Fabians&quot;.  &quot;Fallen among thieves&quot; is of course the biblical example, and with regards to the thieves&#039; kitchen air of 12 Grimmauld Place, and in particular, the dubious activities of Mundungus Fletcher and, for that matter, Arthur (who gets 10 world cup final tickets in the top box for helping Ludo Bagman out of a spot of difficulty) the comment seems even more apt to describe the Order.

It might be worth looking closer at some of the parallels you seek to draw.

Emmeline Pankhurst (with her husband) were undoubtedly members of the Fabian Society in its early days.  But she had moved away from it even before her husband&#039;s death, precisely because the couple thought not enough was being done, specifically on the question of votes for women and Home Rule for Ireland.  Emmeline Pankhurst&#039;s WSPU split from the Fawcett Society (which had a number of members in common with the Fabians) because she favoured direct action (or what the authorities of the day undoubtedly saw as terrorism and reacted to as such) to advance the cause of women&#039;s suffrage and which was the very antithesis of the Fabian approach.      Lingering bitterness over this split (and whether Pankhurst created a cult of personality rather than a genuinely grassroots movement) can be traced in histories of the topics, with a number of prominent Fabian writers weighing in against Pankhurst.  In any event, the WSPU colours were purple, white and green; a green shawl might be worn to show sympathy, but it might also be a sign of support for Irish republican politics.  Or, of course, a fashion accessory.

I also note that you make the usual confusion between Beatrix Potter, author of Peter Rabbit, and Beatrice Potter, who, with her husband Sidney and under her married name of Webb, was the author of A History of Trade Unionism and Industrial Democracy.  I believe the confusion frequently occurred during their lifetimes, to the irritation of both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it is necessarily inconsistent with identifying the Order of the Phoenix with the Fabian Society to see it as a slightly comic, marginalised body which consists of a small group of individuals with high-minded (and slightly woolly) ideals and messed up, morally dubious personal practices.</p>
<p>Lenin, for example, referred to GBS as &#8220;A good man fallen among Fabians&#8221;.  &#8220;Fallen among thieves&#8221; is of course the biblical example, and with regards to the thieves&#8217; kitchen air of 12 Grimmauld Place, and in particular, the dubious activities of Mundungus Fletcher and, for that matter, Arthur (who gets 10 world cup final tickets in the top box for helping Ludo Bagman out of a spot of difficulty) the comment seems even more apt to describe the Order.</p>
<p>It might be worth looking closer at some of the parallels you seek to draw.</p>
<p>Emmeline Pankhurst (with her husband) were undoubtedly members of the Fabian Society in its early days.  But she had moved away from it even before her husband&#8217;s death, precisely because the couple thought not enough was being done, specifically on the question of votes for women and Home Rule for Ireland.  Emmeline Pankhurst&#8217;s WSPU split from the Fawcett Society (which had a number of members in common with the Fabians) because she favoured direct action (or what the authorities of the day undoubtedly saw as terrorism and reacted to as such) to advance the cause of women&#8217;s suffrage and which was the very antithesis of the Fabian approach.      Lingering bitterness over this split (and whether Pankhurst created a cult of personality rather than a genuinely grassroots movement) can be traced in histories of the topics, with a number of prominent Fabian writers weighing in against Pankhurst.  In any event, the WSPU colours were purple, white and green; a green shawl might be worn to show sympathy, but it might also be a sign of support for Irish republican politics.  Or, of course, a fashion accessory.</p>
<p>I also note that you make the usual confusion between Beatrix Potter, author of Peter Rabbit, and Beatrice Potter, who, with her husband Sidney and under her married name of Webb, was the author of A History of Trade Unionism and Industrial Democracy.  I believe the confusion frequently occurred during their lifetimes, to the irritation of both.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Alan Wilson</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/fabian-society-post-160/comment-page-1/#comment-10340</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Alan Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 19:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swordofgryffindor.com/2006/06/08/fabian-society-post/#comment-10340</guid>
		<description>And, you will notice, that in the 20th C. many of the Fabians&#039; ideas have been implemented.  Most countries have publicly-funded old age pensions, universal sufferage, some sort of medical services for the poor, child labor laws, workers&#039; compensation (instead of the old &#039;fellow-servant&#039; rule), workplace safety rules, public health and sanitation, unemployement insurance, welfare, etc.  Some have more than others, and most could be doing better, but compared to how things were when the Fabians were founded. . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, you will notice, that in the 20th C. many of the Fabians&#8217; ideas have been implemented.  Most countries have publicly-funded old age pensions, universal sufferage, some sort of medical services for the poor, child labor laws, workers&#8217; compensation (instead of the old &#8216;fellow-servant&#8217; rule), workplace safety rules, public health and sanitation, unemployement insurance, welfare, etc.  Some have more than others, and most could be doing better, but compared to how things were when the Fabians were founded. . . .</p>
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