Instead of posting a plothole, this time I’m going to try to solve one. I only had one minor gripe with PoA (having to do with butterbeer), so we’re on to GoF. The biggest plothole that folks have mentioned from GoF is the use of the Triwizard Cup by Faux Moody as the portkey as Harry’s invite to Lord Thingy’s second birthday party. Why such a complicated process? Why wait so long? Why chance Harry not being the one to touch it? Why couldn’t Crouch, Jr. have just passed him something in a little office chat at some point earlier in the year?
Well, obviously the book wouldn’t have been anywhere near as long, so it could have simply been a plot necessity. But I’m going to make some suggestions that might help us make more sense of it.
Voldemort’s Power: While Wormtail suggested that they could use someone other than Harry and get the thing done with a lot quicker, it is rather evident that Baby-mort was gaining power throughout the course of the book. The Dark Mark tattoos kept getting clearer throughout, as we heard from both Karkarov and Snape. Frequent mentions were made about Dumbledore “reading the signs.” It seems a reasonable explanation that Voldemort wanted to wait long enough to achieve a certain amount of regained strength, even in his defeated form, before the re-birth occurred. We have no idea what kind of magic took place in that cauldron, but it might indeed be a process that could have failed had Babymort not been strong enough.
Voldemort’s Planning: Voldemort is very patient and cunning. As the symbol of pure evil in the series, it’s likely that we can draw some parallels between him and the current world threat of terrorism, which also embodies one of the clearest forms of present-day evil. And we know terrorists are patient and cunning. They are willing to wait as long as it takes to make sure their plans go correctly.
As such, it would also make sense for Harry to grasp a portkey at a time when it would not be noticed that he was missing. Were Harry expected in a class, at lunch, or back in the common room after an office meeting with Faux Moody, people would have noticed he was missing. At the Third Task, however, no one had any idea how long it would take the champions to find the cup. The whole plan moved him at significant distance from Dumbledore and the rest of the school, ironically, during the very time that they were most aware of Harry’s absence!
Crafty fella, that Voldemort.
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{ 72 comments… read them below or add one }
Travis, that is a good theory. I’ve often wondered about that Triwizard Cup thing and this would somehow explain it.
Yet, it was a complicated and risky plan, because there was always a chance that Harry wouldn’t win the tournament. There might have been a safer and easier way, I guess. As far as we know any object could be turned into a portkey and be programmed to work at a certain time:
“They’re objects used to transport wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time.†(GoF, British edition, p. 81)
Therefore any object would have done and the timing wouldn’t be a problem. Maybe Harry’s absence would have been noticed earlier, but Voldemort could have killed him anyway. Then again, any object might be turned into a Horcrux and Voldemort could have chosen a stone to throw it into the next river, where no one would ever find it. Yet, he prefered objects of a certain grandeur and symbolic meaning, which are much easier to detect.
I suppose, the whole plan has something to do with Voldemorts screwed up logic. He also would like the irony of Harry meeting his death after a moment of triumph. It’s not the most practical solution, but one that suits Voldemort. Who knows what’s going on in his reptile brain?
Well, I still think it’s a plot hole.
Assuming you’re correct that Voldemort needed to wait until he was stronger before attempting the rebirthing ritual, it was stupid to trick the GoF into naming Harry as a fourth champion, thereby tipping everyone’s hand that something nefarious was in the works regarding Harry Potter. It would have been smarter to leave Harry out of it all year and then let Fake Moody trick Harry into picking up a portkey when Voldemort was ready. After all, Fake Moody and Voldemort were able to communicate by owl.
Felicity wrote Assuming you’re correct that Voldemort needed to wait until he was stronger before attempting the rebirthing ritual, it was stupid to trick the GoF into naming Harry as a fourth champion, thereby tipping everyone’s hand that something nefarious was in the works regarding Harry Potter.
Yes, plus, Dumbledore must have known who was behind that nefarious something. After all, he knew that Voldemort had returned to England.
I think that GOF has some of the biggest plotting problems in the series. JKR admitted that she had to do a major rewrite when she hit a plot hole part way through. I’m not sure that she was able to completely patch things up.
Your explanation is as good as any – the 3rd task got Harry far away from Dumbledore, was expected to take a while, and was intrinsically dangerous.
Even then, all it takes for Voldemort’s plan to fail is for Cedric to be a little more ambitious – you’ll recall that Cedric reached the cup first, but felt that he hadn’t won it honorably.
I would use one of the obvious tricks that Rowling is up to. John Granger and plenty of others have noted that Rowling loves showing you what’s up at one place while the real important stuff happens somewhere else. It seems plausible that Voldemort was up to something else outside the main story arc. I think it might have something to do with the Horcruxes, but there’s no way to be sure unless Rowling says in DH.
At some level, it is practical for the maze is a logical place for a portkey ambush. As Travis said, there is no time limit, and the maze isn’t visible to everyone. And Voldemort needs Harry’s blood to complete the rebirthing process, and I think he needs Harry alive. I’ve always understood that scene to be that Voldemort needs something about Harry’s essence (for lack of a better word), and my guess is that this is only present if Harry’s alive. The graveyard next to the Riddle estate is secluded, symbolic, and probably full of powerfully dark magic. Setting up the the Cup as a portkey is convenient for Voldemort to buy time. The moment Harry’s disappearence is apparent, Dumledore and the Order will reign all Hell on Voldemort and the few Death Eaters that have returned to his side to rescue Harry, putting Voldemort’s long-term plans in the toilet.
My only problem with the plot in the book was that the Goblet tossed out Harry’s name. Even if it were bewitched by Moody/Barty, wouldn’t Dumbledore have taken extensive measures to guard the integrity of the Cup with more than an ageline? Or was this tournament set up with Dumbledore assuming Harry’s participation for one reason/purpose or another (maybe using him as bait)?
Dumbledore has said that his mistakes, though rare, are often disastrous. But this is the point where I think Rowling painted herself into a corner and just hoped the reader would be too dazzled by the first glimpse of the true Voldemort to really care. If Dumbledore had made this mistake, I think he would have revealed it as such at the end of OotP or in the tutorial sessions in HBP.
I agree…it’s still a plothole. Makes no sense to me. Just thought it’d be fun to try it. When I got to the end of this post, I frowned, and hit “publish” anyway.
This reading of Goblet made it drop a spot in my order of favorites. I think OP, HBP, and PoA are all better books.
Well there will be a lot of plot holes in a series this long.Thankfully though there aren’t a big amount in JK’s world, and few are able to see it. The reader would accept this and move on, as a pose to stop reading and hanging up the book. It was a tad contrived but I love the events that unfolded from it regardless.
And just to add ,HBP on the surface does seem to have it’s plot holes. Look at the two accounts of the night of the prophecy were both heard. Though I tend to think that could actually be purposeful.
Any hoot, I love talking which HP books are peoples preferred choice. My order of favorite would go, HBP, OOTH, GOF, POA, COS and PS
Ironically, despite thinking that GOF’s plot has its problem, it’s still probably my second-favorite book. In my opinion, Voldemort’s resurrection is one of the most powerful things Jo has written.
I definitely think POA is my favorite. It’s very well constructed and very tightly plotted. The climactic scene in the Shrieking Shack is just brilliant, as she brings like 10 different subplots together and wraps them all up with a couple of well-chosen revelations.
I’d probably rank the books as POA, GOF, OOTP, COS, HBP, PS – with the option to move HBP up a bit once we see how well it connects with the final volume.
Alright, as long as we’ve gotten on this conversation – if I’m talking about my favorite, it’d look like this: OotP, HBP, PoA, GoF, CoS, PS. If I’m talking about best-written: HBP, OotP, PoA, CoS, GoF, PS. (CS and GF would be tied in that second list).
I’ve got a theory about the plot hole in GoF which JKR had to rewrite to cover. I’m thinking that originally Moody wasn’t supposed to be Barty Jr, but just himself. Someone else was to have introduced the portkey, and put Harry’s name in the contest. But that someone (Karkaroff? Krum?) didn’t work out plotwise, so she had to find a substitute.
Evidence? Well, it’s more the absence of evidence that Moody is not who he claims to be. As DADA teachers go, Moody/Crouch is not a bad teacher. He actually teaches the kids – and Harry – how to resist an Imperius curse. A very valuable skill to impart to your beloved master’s deadly enemy, wouldn’t you say? Also, the whole saga of Barty Jr is in two disconnected parts: a beginning, where he’s sentenced to Azkaban, and an end, when he emerges from his disguise to a sudden and convenient lack of polyjuice potion.
Barty exists as a character mainly through exposition – always a sign that something is off.
And I’ve never thought it plausible that he kept Moody alive – couldn’t he just have cut off some of his hair?
Also, the whole saga of how Barty Jr escaped from Azkaban, was kept safe at home by his father under an invisibility cloak with the Imperius curse, and then how he gradually worked off the curse and put his father under the Imperius curse, is very, very overplotted.
I sense feverish re-writing at work. I wonder what the gap was in the original plot that led to it’s being jettisoned.
On keeping Moody alive – I wonder if Crouch, Jr. didn’t do that so that, under the Imperius curse, he could keep learning more about Moody so as to play the role better. Specific questions could be asked along the way that would be invaluable towards keeping the charade alive.
Interesting. I can see that fitting well.
Though I don’t see it as too much of a problem to try the imperius curse on Harry. It’s a good way of checking his resistance to it and if it would be worthwhile to use this to get him to Voldemort… somehow. Also he is checking if he can use any of those close to Harry as potential tools.
Matthew
I love this blog. Travis, you create some fantastic discussions. Major props.
And speaking of Moodie, I wonder what happened to his soulless body…
Michael, you must mean Barty Jr, whose soul was sucked out by a Dementor, and not Moody, who remains his colorful self.
It’s a good question. It relates to another question I have about GoF: why did Barty Jr get the kiss of (soul) death off camera, and so quickly? Was it to take away the evidence of Voldemort’s return so Harry could be safely villified in OotP? Was it because, purpose served, the author had no need of him and tidied him away? Or was there a more sinister reason? Is there a need for at least one soulless body in DH? And do we even know for sure that that is what happened, since it was off camera?
Reyhan said: I’ve got a theory about the plot hole in GoF which JKR had to rewrite to cover. I’m thinking that originally Moody wasn’t supposed to be Barty Jr, but just himself. Someone else was to have introduced the portkey, and put Harry’s name in the contest. But that someone (Karkaroff? Krum?) didn’t work out plotwise, so she had to find a substitute.
I think that’s a pretty good guess. The Fake!Moody revelation is just not set up very well compared to some of JKR’s other plot twists. And the whole beginning of GOF is a mass of contradictions when compared to the “true story” we get out of Crouch Jr. at the end. Moreover, the whole premise that Crouch Jr. could impersonate Moody – a close associate of Dumbledore’s and an original member of the Order – well enough to fool Dumbledore for a year just does not pass the giggle test.
Personally, I suspect that Ludo was the original candidate, as we never really get a payoff to the hints that he was a DE, or that Rita knew things about him that would curl your hair. But I just can’t see what plot hole would have been opened if Bagman (or Karkaroff) had originally been planned as the “faithful servant”.
Reyhan yes that’s exactly who I mean. My bad.
I wonder if the Ministry juts sent him back to Azkaban and buried him around the prison.
Doug,
I think you might be right about Ludo. He is a completely useless character that goes absolutely nowhere. He has such a prominent role throughout most of the book. There is this somewhat sinister notion that the twins are dealing with him in some sort of underhanded scheme. Then, it’s all a matter that he’s broke and he scammed the twins on the bet at the Quidditch World Cup…? And his interest in Harry is that he’s got a bet on him…? That’s one huge load of BS to dump on a reader and expect him/her to believe it.
Why not believe it? It makes total sense in regard to his character… I thought.
About the Portkey-’plothole’ of GOF… It might have been risky and needlessly time-consuming of Voldemort to set the trap the way he did. But there’s another aspect I’m missing here… Not only is Voldemort patient and cunning, he also shows a certain appreciation of dramatics, he loves glorious entries, he loves spectacular shows. The idea of pulling off such a grotesque and dangerous stunt right under the nose of Dumbledore must have appealed to him.
I fully agree with the parallel Travis made with present-day terrorism. And keep in mind 9-11 was a well-planned, but risky attack too… right under the nose of those in power. It had a symbolic value, it was a sort of statement. Likewise, I think Voldie was making a statement here. So, irrational and dangerous, yes, but a plothole – no way. Just a megalomaniac at work.
(I love the Moody-plothole-theories, BTW. However, keeping Moody alive makes perfect sense, since a living body is an endless source for your Polyjuice Potion, don’t you think. A dead and decaying body is not.)
Anton makes a good point. When Voldemort does something, he goes big. He wants everyone to know it was he who was responsible, and drive everyone crazy with the fact that Harry was obviously in trouble, and Lord Voldemort still managed to get what he wanted. Voldemort is every bit as much a psychological terror as a physical one.
There’s one more, really big stretch we could attempt, but even I don’t buy it. I’ll suggest it anyway:
What if Voldemort was down a horcrux? Either he had been made aware of the diary caper, or he was still short one. He likes trophies. Maybe the idea of zapping Harry to himself with the TriWizard cup and making a horcrux out of the cup from Harry’s death was appealing to him – you know, finish the job he meant to complete at Godric’s Hollow.
Long shot, yes, and we have nothing in the text to indicate that whatsoever. In any event, it failed, so it wouldn’t exactly have any lasting significance to the plot anyway.
I like Doug’s idea about Ludo Bagman probably being the original candidate for role of the DE who sets up Harry to win the TriWizard Cup. He is all too prominent in the story to justify his eventual relegation to the role of ex-sports-hero with a gambling problem.
It’s possible of course, that he was always what he appears to be – a red herring. However, I don’t think enough time is spent in the story speculating about who did put Harry’s name in the goblet to entirely support that theory. We didn’t really need a red herring because we weren’t really looking for suspects.
If Ludo was the original candidate, then this is what I think may have happened. JKR wrote the book with Ludo as the traitor, and Moody as the DADA professor for the year. She wrote some very good scenes with Moody instructing the kids. She then saw an inconsistency – don’t know what – and had to re-write. Introducing a new character at that stage would have meant an entire rewrite – not a good thing when the publisher and the fans are clamouring for the book. So she took a DE (Barty Jr) and superimposed him on the existing character. It wasn’t an entirely satisfactory arrangement – I agree with Doug that it’s a real stretch to imagine Barty Jr could imitate a close friend of Dumbledore’s for nine months. I think that she liked the scenes where Moody/Barty Jr teaches about the Unforgivable Curses so much that she couldn’t bear to delete them. So she left them in, although it doesn’t make sense for a DE to be teaching Harry Potter how to overcome Voldemort’s favorite weapons.
This could also explain why Barty Jr was so expediently “disappeared” at the end. JKR never had too much interest in him as a character.
I thought about Ludo as a red herring, too. But all the other red herring characters serve some purpose, either thematically or in terms of the plot. Ludo Bagman is a complete MacGuffin. You could remove him from the book and lose nothing from the story.
Reyhan that does make sense. JK herself has said she had a hard time writing book four. Perhaps we are still to see Barty play a role in seven that could answer a few of these inconsistencies?
I’m going to jump into the minority for the moment (the minority being, only me, for right now at least) and say that Ludo did have a point.
Rowling needs someone to be suspicious to throw us off the trail of Moody, especially with all Voldemort’s talk of his “faithful servant at Hogwarts.” It would have been all too easy for readers to guess that the new guy is the bad guy. Crouch couldn’t be a credible red-herring, because his character is FAR too anti-dark arts. Obviously, the other person readers would have thought of was Snape. But she wasn’t going to do Philosopher’s Stone all over again. So we needed someone else to be suspicious of.
So Ludo’s a plot device. He’s a throwaway character for sure, but given the plot Rowling had constructed (again, not her best), he was necessary. I think the Red Herring was necessary. I think we were looking for suspects. I was, anyway.
I was looking for suspects and Bagman was definitely suspicious. I believe that Joanne chose Crouch jr. as the real culprit from the beginning. The very idea of the fake Moody and the Crouch storyline are too detailed and central to the plot for her to bring it in as an afterthought, and rewrite the whole thing, imo. I suppose all readers where looking for suspects, but surprisingly none of her characters did.
The investigation ended right at the point where it should have started, once it was clear that Harry didn’t cheat his way into the tournament.
I agree with Anton, that the plan must have been very appealing to Voldemort, pulling off a stunt under Dumbledores nose. That’s something Voldemort would love to do, and after all he is irrational and doesn’t seem to go for the most practical solution. But for me that’s precisely where the plothole comes in. It’s not that the plan was complicated, but that it was supposed to happen right under Dumbledore’s nose.
Not only was it so typical for Voldemort, which Dumbledore must have noticed, it was just too obvious so that he could have easily counted two and two together. While we didn’t know the culprit, everyone probably guessed who was the driving force behind the plan. Just how much did Dumbledore know and what did he expect to happen?
Going back to the original question of why LV chose the apparently more complicated route of getting Harry into the graveyard by way of entering him into the tournament and then turning the TW cup into a portkey — this has always bothered me, too. But I had a few thoughts…
I like Travis’ idea that LV was growing stronger and needed to wait (and possibly prepare other things) before he could really use Harry. Also, I believe the third task took place on June 20 or 21, which would be Midsummer’s Eve, a special date on the witchcraft calendar. It’s my understanding that magical powers are supposed to be heightened at those certain special times on the calendar, so that could have been another thing LV was waiting for.
And if LV had to wait for Midsummer’s Eve in order for his power to be heightened, then he would have known that the entire school would be attending the third task of the TWT (as I recall the dates were set well in advance), so it really might have been the easiest way to get Harry alone on such a night (after all, he couldn’t very well just disappear from the crowd without anyone noticing).
So that’s my stab…I don’t know, but I just hope JKR clears it all up some day.
Mia has an excellent point. Why did Dumbledore allow the whole exercise to happen right under his nose? He couldn’t possibly have believed it to be harmless.
Two possible explanations, for me:
One is that he did know what was up, and he did allow it, for his own inscrutable but soon to be revealed reasons. This theory would get some support from the “gleam of triumph” Harry detects in his eye when he finds out about the blood transfusion.
The other explanation is that there are points all throughout the stories where Dumbledore is surprisingly inert, and does not take action on things which we would suppose him to know about or at least suspect were going on. These include a teacher wearing a turban (I mean, wouldn’t someone with DD’s powers have smelt the evil everytime Quirrell entered the room?), a DADA teacher who couldn’t do elementary spells, a basilisk preying on students, the rigged contest in GoF (quick, who is Harry Potter’s arch enemy?), and Umbdridge’s novel way of getting students to write lines, not to mention Snape’s nastiness to his students. I call it Dumbledore’s “divine indifference”.
There is a third explanation, of course, which is “plot requirement.” Me, I go for number 3.
I don’t know. I’d add a #4: Dumbledore is not omniscient. There’s stuff he doesn’t know.
I’m not sure exactly how Dumbledore was supposed to know what was coming with the Triwizard Cup portkey. The plan was utterly insane. Even brilliance couldn’t have figured that one out.
Dumbledore couldn’t possibly have figured out the entire plan. Yet: He didn’t believe for a moment, that Harry put his name into the cup. Only a skilled person could have done that with a complicated Confundus Charm. Didn’t Dumbledore care to know who’d done that and why? And didn’t he even suspect Voldemort, whom he knew had recently returned to England and who didn’t have Harry’s best interest in mind? I find that hard to believe.
On the other hand, like Reyhan pointed out, Dumbledore has shown “divine indifference†on several other occasions. I notice some kind of pattern here. Why is that so? There is some probability for explanation number 1, Dumbledore allowed it, and an even greater probability for number 3, plot device. I’d go for number 3, too, but it’s not very satisfying.
I never saw this as a plot hole. I always took it as a show of LV’s ego and need to do things in a grandiose way. He chose these ways of doing it “not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win…” JFK Rice Moon Speech Sept. 12, 1962.
Don’t know if anyone will read down this far…
Note that though the Cup/Portkey left from the middle of the maze, it returned *outside* of the maze. I propose that this was planned by Moody/Crouch.
Now think about this potential situation, if all went well for Voldemort: Harry wins the tournament and grabs the cup. Pettigrew rebirths Voldemort, who summons his Death Eaters and kills Harry, promptly and easily. (He’s 14! Of *course* Voldemort would kill him without a snag!) Then, Voldemort and his DEs grab the Portkey and go BACK to Hogwarts!
There, of course, are congregated hundreds of students and many key Wizarding officials (Fudge, Madame Maxine, Bagman, Karkaroff, and, of course, Dumbldore). They will the TOTAL element of surprise on them, and can thereby inflict massive damage, a stunning terroristic attack, perhaps disabling the superstructure of the entire good side in one simple blow!
(Voldemort in the graveyard doesn’t hint about this plan, and JKR may not have thought about it. In fact, on a strict reading of the book, I think she did NOT plan this scenario and it is a big plot hole. But if it was true, this would explain perfectly why Voldemort had to go through the whole Tournament charade: because it perfectly set up a crushing Voldemort victory, possibly killing Harry, Dumbledore, the Minister of Magic, and countless students all at once.)
Excellent!
Just excellent.
Matthew
squibbler, it’s an interesting theory. My hesitation would be that I’m not entirely convinced LV would be wanting to take a chance at facing “the only one he ever feared” just a few moments after regaining his power, especially in front of every Hogwarts teacher, student, and a handful of Ministry officials. After just getting his life back, I very much doubt Voldemort is going to risk it in front of so many accomplished wizards with only his handful of remaining Death Eaters of whose loyalty he is not yet completely convinced.
I was struck by the fact that squibbler is theorizing about what would have happened next had things turned out differently.
There’s an assumption here – shared by many who post on this blog – that the wizarding world somehow exists beyond the books, that the books are a kind of window or camera on an ongoing world, and that when the camera is taken away, that world continues to function, and the characters continue to plan and scheme and act.
That world exists in our collective imaginations, it’s true, and in that sense it has taken on a life outside of the pages of the books. But all that ever happened, all that was thought and planned and done, and all that will ever happen in that world is in the pages of the books. There is nothing more.
And in that sense, there is no “would have” – unless the author tells us.
Reyhan, agreed on the last point, sort of. But there obviously is a lot more to the WW than what we’re given in the books. Rowling has boxes and boxes of backstory. I don’t think it’s unhelpful to think in terms of “would have” scenarios, because it shows whether or not we’re really getting into the minds of these characters and the world they live in.
There’s no harm in thinking about plausible reasons how a potential plot problem can be solved. Sharing these kinds of thoughts with other fans is an good and excellent thing.
Reyhan, you say there is nothing more than what’s written in the books. I disagree. Rowling has stated that she has boxes and boxes of back story and character histories. She has also said that if she pulishes anything more of the Harry story after book seven it’ll be the backstory.
Would please explian your last post further? I couldn’t get what you were trying to say. Are you suggesting we shouldn’t speculate or try to solve the plot issues?
Matthew
Matt, I would never say that we shouldn’t speculate. Speculating is what we do, the raison d’etre of this blog, and a lot of fun besides.
But there are levels of speculation.
The first one, the most compelling one, is: what’s going to happen in book 7? The next one, almost as compelling, is what actually happened in books 1-6? The Harry Potter saga is as much in the mystery genre as it is in fantasy. JKR delights in fooling us, and we delight in trying to see through her red herrings. Closely linked to this is speculation about what was happening in books 1-6 that we didn’t see through our “window” but which will impact on the denoument in book 7.
The next level is when we try to figure out what’s actually going on in the minds of the characters. We only have access to Harry’s thoughts, so we can only speculate about what the others thinking. This level is closely linked to motive, so it impacts on levels 1 and 2, lending it considerable importance.
As you proceed thorough the levels, you get further and further away from the canon. We try to base out speculations on evidence, but sometimes there is no evidence. Or the evidence is ambiguous.
And sometimes, there isn’t even an issue, except one which we’ve manufactured. One example of this is the recent post about why Dumbledore allows Snape to be so mean (sadistic) to the kids. What are his motives? Well, the problem is, we are trying to solve a problem that we identified. It’s not – as far as we know – internal to the story. No one in the canon has thought or said “Headmaster, why do you allow Snape to torment the students?” I’m not saying it’s a valid point – in the real world bullying and abuse of power by people in positions of authority are a matter of great concern. And they may be in the wizarding world as well. But not until the author identifies it in the canon, either directly, or indirectly.
Asking “what would have happened” if something else “had happened” is moving even futher into the realm of pure speculation. The problem with this level of speculation is that there are so many possibilities. Each situation can be resolved in multiple ways, and eacf of those solutions can lead off to multiple situations, resulting in an infinite number of “stories”. You could argue that some are likelier than others, but this brings me to my main point.
Let me try to explain what I mean by saying “there is nothing more”.
Nothing happens off the pages. We can think and speculate and argue about what could have and what would have, but that’s not the story. The point Matt and Travis raised about the boxes and boxes of back story JKR has is well made. While most of the back story is what else happened, or what happened previously, some of it well may be alternate plot lines or endings she played with. The back story may emerge over time. But those alternate plot lines and endings will not. There will be no “director’s cut” because you have the director’s cut in your hands. She cut off the infinite number of alternative plot lines and endings. This is what you have. There is nothing more.
I really want to respond to the questions being raised by Reyhan’s post, #28, because I think it dovetails neatly into the DD-Snape dilemma and coincides with my opinions on that matter.
My view will probably not be very popular, but here goes…
I believe that, from book 1, we see DD allowing Harry to experience all sorts of dangers and difficulties. Why? Because DD knows the prophecy, and knows that Harry is no ordinary boy with no ordinary task. He allows Harry to face these things in order to prepare Harry for the final confrontation. Can you imagine what it would be like for Harry to face-off against LV if DD had protected him from facing Quirrelmort or Snape or Dolores Umbridge or the Triwizard tasks? He’d be leaving the only boy with the known ability to vanquish LV with no combat experience whatsoever! This would be the cruelest decision of all.
And before you scoff that a good guy like DD would ever take such risks with the life of a child, remember that DD told Harry in book 1 that he wanted Harry to understand how the mirror of Erised worked — it was like he knew Harry would have to be the one to use it in order to get the stone from Quirrelmort. Also, DD was very conspicuously absent when Harry had to battle for the stone, suggesting he was allowing Harry the opportunity to face his enemy.
And, far from apologizing for not protecting Harry better in his first years at Hogwarts, DD blames himself in book 5 for not telling Harry about the prophecy from the start — when Harry was only 11 years old!
If this seems outrageous and cruel, I think we have to remember that DD has more than the safety of one boy to worry about. He is concerned with saving all of humanity from LV, and if the sacrifice of one boy is what it might take…well, you can see the dilemma that DD is up against. It is the same bitter choice Gandalf faced when he sent Frodo off to Mount Doom.
So, like a great general, DD must prepare his special ops unit — Harry & co. for battle. He dare not overprotect them, or he risks leaving them without the necessary experience to survive. But I’m sure he’s spent many a sleepless night agonizing over his choice.
Legilimency wrote He allows Harry to face these things in order to prepare Harry for the final confrontation.
Well, he certainly did allow Harry to face Voldemort in book 1. This is what Harry said: [i]“I think [Dumbledore] sort of wanted to give me a chance […] It’s almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort.†(PS, British edition, p. 324/5) Dumbledore sent Harry the Invisibility Cloak and taught him as much as he needed to learn. He knew what Harry planned yet didn’t stop him.
So I think it might be possible that something similar happened in book 4. Dumbledore let Fake Moody teach the Unforgivable Curses, providing Harry with a defense. His gleam of triumph after Harry’s report also supports the idea. Obviously Voldemort made a serious mistake, so was it Dumbledore’s plan all along? Did he want Harry to face Voldemort once again? That’s a tough one, because it resulted in Cedric’s death and I don’t quite believe that Dumbledore would have someone put Harry through such an ordeal.
But perhaps Dumbledore didn’t exactly foresee the events, just had a pretty good guess that Voldemort was about to make a mistake and didn’t step in. He wasn’t aware of all the facts, for example “Moody’s†true identity. I’m not sure and it’s been a while since I read the book, so I’m just thinking out loud.
Not to get off topic, but…
Does anybody suspect that we haven’t seen the last of Ludo Bagman? We see a criminal trial for him, which she probably could have edited out without too much hassle, and he gets off scotch free even though there was only his word that he didn’t know what he was doing and his overwhelming popularity. Is he really bumbling and clueless? That’s what so many thought of Peter, and look what he could do! Could Bagman really have been a willing DE accomplice after all? I know he was probably just a red herring, but…ah well. I suppose if he were to step in during the 7th she would have mentioned him at least once in the 6th. Still, his seeming uselessness as a character bothers me too. He’s funny, jovial, bumbling, and gambling, but that’s all he is.
He also p’ed off the goblins and Fred and George pretty badly. Maybe there’s some scores to settle in this direction.
Matthew
I hope so. He was built up to be a prominent character. I was expecting more of him in book 5.
When I saw the film, I didn’t notice he was missing, because I had forgotten all about him. So, yes, maybe we haven’t yet seen the last of Ludo Bagman. After all, in book 4 we’ve spent a lot of time with him and he seemed pretty useless except being suspicious.
Coming back to Legilimency’s point about Dumbledore: I’ve given it some thought and I’m more and more convinced that he did expect the outcome. That gleam of triumph is very telling, he wasn’t surprised at all that Voldemort had used Harry’s blood. It almost seems like it was something he’d hoped for (though “hope†probably isn’t the right word in this horrible context).
Dumbledore definitely knew that Voldemort had returned and was constantly gaining strength over the year. He must have suspected that Voldemort was about to create a new body for himself and perhaps realized that it could be achieved with the blood of his enemy. If indeed Dumbledore did allow that to happen, it was a bitter choice. Oh dear.
Yeah, well, if Dumbledore knowingly and without warning sent Harry to face Voldemort and sacrificed Cedric Diggory in order to win the ultimate battle against Voldemort then my previous comment (under the Dumbledore-Snape Dilemman) is garbage. Machiavelli wins.
I very much appreciate the comment you mentioned, Reyhan. You said it so much better than I could.
The chapter in the graveyard is the most horrible in the books and I don’t want to associate it with Dumbledore either. There was a scene in the film where McGonagall said, “For heaven’s sake, he’s a boy not a piece of meat!” Dumbledore wouldn’t use Harry as a bait for Voldemort, I trust.
But why the triumph in his eyes, I just don’t know what to make of it.
Hi Mia,
I’m sure the gleam of triumph will be explained in DH.
However I think that, while Voldemort wished to use Harry’s blood in particular in order to neutralize the effect of protection that we saw at the end of SS/PS – which resulted in Quirrell’s death. And it worked.
I think it’s reasonable to suppose that having Harry’s blood courseing through him may have other implications of which Voldemort is as yet unaware – in the same way he was unaware that having a wand with the same core as Harry’s produced an unexpected effect.
Just as Dumbledore was aware of the reasons for the wand phenomenon and was able to explain it, I would assume that the fleeting gleam of triumph relates to the other possible implications of which Dumbledore is aware and of which he assumes Voldemort is not.
Speculating about exactly what the implications may be is not very productive, except to note that there may be a parallel of sorts in the wand-core effect. Perhaps blood, as the core of the body is in some sense analogous to the core of a wand (or vice-versa). Just a thought…
I have wondered about the like-wandcore effects. The singing and the cage like thing- was it a result of the Pheonix feather wand cores or was Fawkes himself involved. If so, Harry wasn’t as alone in the graveyard as suspected and Dumbledore was active in his protection of Harry even in this situation.
Matthew
S_B, I think that it’s understood that Dumbledore was pleased by the blood sharing and what it means – no good for Voldemort. To me, Mia’s question has more to do with did Dumbledore know what would happen ahead of time, and still allowed it to happen, because he wanted the sharing to take place? Which goes back to the question of Dumbledore using Harry (and sacrificing Cedric) for the greater good.
Matthew, I would agree that Dumbledore was somewhat present in the graveyard through the spirit (?) manifestation of the phoenix – and was it not his voice that spoke in Harry’s mind? So we could say that he didn’t send Harry off alone. But he didn’t protect Cedric at all, did he?
Mia, I think that the most charitable interpretation of the “gleam of triumph” is that Dumbledore did not know that the Cup was a portkey, did not know Harry would meet and battle Voldemort – but did provide some protection during the battle through his spirit familiar Fawkes – and was very pleasantly surprised by the revelation that Voldemort had reconstituted his evil self with some Evans/Potter blood, presumably because it would act on him like holy water in a vampire, by and by.
I just can’t get into the theory that Dumbledore knew what was going to happen when Harry touched that cup. Makes no sense to me, for many of the reasons mentioned.
“Dumbledore” was only in the graveyard inasmuch as Fawkes was there, and that was only because of the wand core effect, so I’m not sure it’s accurate to talk about Dumbledore’s protecting or not protecting certain people in the graveyard.
On this point, at least, we are in agreement, Travis.
I don’t think Dumbledore “sent Harry off”, Reyhan. I do think he could have said to Fawkes “Find Harry and help him!”.
Matthew
I am forced to eat my words, but happily.
I said in an earlier comment (#38, above) that asking what would have happened if something else had happened was pointless.
I was totally mistaken.
I was scanning through the link Travis put in the latest post (Around the Common Room: Rowling Answers Loads of Questions) courtesy of Matthew, and saw the following question and answer:
“In ‘Chamber of Secrets’, what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?
I can’t answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably.”
The way I understand her answer, JKR is talking about what happens when the fragment of soul deposited in a Horcrux escapes the Horcrux. This has enormous significance for understanding the events in HBP.
Dumbledore never told Harry how his hand got shrivelled. I think it’s safe to conclude that this happened during his hunt for Marvolo’s ring. Maybe the soul-fragment tried to take over Dumbledore, and he had to blast his own hand to destroy it?
And even more intriguing, is what happened to Dumbledore after he consumed the green potion of awfullness. Look at the chain of events. He drinks the potion. He starts talking in voices, as if he’s possessed. He goes back to Hogwarts, asking Harry to get Snape. Snape comes. Dumbledore says “Severus . . . please”. Snape AK’s him.
Did he AK Dumbledore, or did he AK the soul-frgament which somehow migrated into Dumbledore through the green potion?
Reyhan,
Not to belabor a point, but I disagree with your assertion about “nothing happens off the page” based purely on Rowling’s narrative architecture. She is presenting a very classic metanarrative technique: The story we’re trying to figure out is about Harry trying to figure out the story of Voldemort and Snape. At least part of the stories in these books exists at the margins of the books. In other words, the books are really a chronicle of characters trying to figure out what’s going on: Snape’s loyalties/character, Voldemort’s actions/plans, Dumbledore’s actions/plans, and the Ministry’s actions/plans.
In effect, Harry is looking at a story happening around him and trying to “read” it while it is being written, no mean feat. Two-thirds or more of the plot in every book is Harry, Ron, and Hermione trying to decipher the plot(s) happening at the school, and establishing where everyone’s loyalties are.
It’s the reason the books invite so much speculation. The major pivot points of all these stories are things that either haven’t been revealed, or that tend to happen off the page.
Reyhan,
Your theory is certainly plausable if the potion was the horcrux and not the locket that was supposed to be there.
Also, I have the impression that the diary was more than a horcrux. A horcrux with a faxcimile of the 16 year old Tom Riddle residing. We see the diary taking over ALL of Ginny and not just creeping in through a body part. I suspect that the ring would attack Dumbledore through his personality (like the One Ring). I do think that the ring struck back at Dumbledore, as Snape told Bellatrix, because his reactions weren’t good enough and was unable to avoid it self-defence.
Matthew
Matthew,
I read from the JKR site that originally book 2 had the book 6 story strand, and the name, HBP. but JKR changed it, and took out the story strand. I assume (correctly?) that the story strand she refers to is that of the Horcruxes.
I don’t know if the diary is an earlier “draft” of a Horcrux (either for Riddle or JKR) and thus not truly representative of the others. Or whether it was in fact a typical Horcrux. We don’t know how the ring manifested it’s “Voldemortness” or what happened when Dumbledore found it, except that it was cracked when Harry saw it, suggesting that it had been de-Voldemorted. The thought of four more mini-Voldemorts is both slightly ridiculous and slightly frightening.
It does seem idiosyncratic of the ring Horcrux to attack Dumbledore by creeping through his hand. Perhaps once he took it in his hand (or put it on his finger) he could not remove it, and had to destroy it hand and all in order to get rid of it.
I re-read the section of CoS where Harry speaks with the Tom Riddle soul-fragment. What I notice that the weaker Ginny gets, the stronger Riddle gets (his outline, which was fuzzy to start out with, gets firmer). It reminded me a bit of how Dumbledore was getting progressively weaker after drinking the potion. Mind you, any slow-acting poison would presumably have the same effect. But a poison wouldn’t have made him say the things he did in the cave.
Reyhan, as we know, the diary worked, because Ginny poured out her soul to Tom Riddle up to a point where he was strong enough to pour back his soul into her. He needed to gain strength by feeding on Ginny’s emotions. I wonder, if a ring could possibly work that way, as Voldemort’s soul piece doesn’t seem to have the ability to take over all by itself. It didn’t take over Harry when he destroyed the diary, Tom Riddle just disappeared.
So the transition doesn’t seem to happen in the process of destroying or merely touching the Horcrux. Several people had touched the diary before, and I’m not sure if it was different from all the other items in that sense. At least, Dumbledore didn’t say so, and wouldn’t he have warned Harry if Horcruxes normally acted that way and if this was what happened to him, when he put on the ring? The diary was different in being a book, almost like a childhood friend to confide in, that’s what it was designed to be and the reason why Voldemort wanted it to be found, unlike his other Horcruxes.
Voldemort must have protected his other items very carefully, like with the green potion or maybe with some kind of curse that he put on the ring. Perhaps this is how Dumbledore injured his hand. Snape said to Bellatrix: “He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once where.†(HBP, Spinner’s End)
As the injury was due to delayed reactions, perhaps Dumbledore couldn’t withdraw his hand fast enough and was hit by the curse or whatever protected the ring. Almost like Katie Bell, when she touched the necklace. In both cases, Snape was able to intervene in time and stop the curse to spread out.
It’s a pity Dumbledore didn’t explain it. I also wonder about the green potion, but I don’t believe it was “Voldemortedâ€, because the locket it originally contained (the real one, that was in Grimmauld Place in OotP) remained closed and untarnished. I think, the soul fragment is still in there.
As for book 2 and 6 having the same story line, I thought it might have been the Potions-Book. Then we’d have two books, Tom Riddle’s diary and Snape’s potion-making. Perhaps we’d have been given too much background-information on Snape to early in the story, and that’s why Rowling cut it out.
Mia,
I changed my mind about the dropped story line in book 2 as soon as I re-read my own comment. I tend to agree with you that it must have been about the potions book, which migrated to book 6, because the Horcrux story line did stay in book 2, although not called that, via the diary.
If the soul fragment remains in the locket, then there are three objects Harry needs to be wary of: locket, Hufflepuff cup and unknown Ravenclaw artifact. He already knows to be extremely wary of the last (potential) Horcrux: Nagini. I’m guessing that at least one of the three objects has been de-Voldemorted along the line, because DH is going to get quite repetitious if Harry has to hunt down and destroy all three, before going for the main prize.
Unless of course Voldemort pulled a fast one and Horcruxed something – or someone – no one suspects and it emerges unexpectedly. Which is totally what I would expect JKR to do.
This comment belongs on a Horcrux thread, but I’m posting it here because it evolved from the discussion here.
Mia,
Green Potion itself, it was much protected. It was not possible to destroy the potion; the only way to get it out of basin was to drink it. When Dumbledore drank some cups of potions he started to talk like he was young Riddle, but he want to change his life.
I consider the following argument as very serious: „So the transition doesn’t seem to happen in the process of destroying or merely touching the Horcrux.“, espesialy merely touching part, but drinking is not touching.
I still think there is enough place for both, locket and potion to contain piece of Voldmort’s soul. Anyway, if had to choose between locket and potion I would choose potion.
P.S. I guess Snape was lying to Belatrix.
Hmmm… was it the young Riddle speaking? Methinks, it was the real Dumbledore, revealing his innermost feelings. Like someone talking in his sleep…
I still believe the locket to be the Horcrux, because it belonged to Slytherin. The green potion doesn’t seem to be a Voldemortian choice. And I don’t see how the soul-fragment could have escaped the locket into the fluid and then into Dumbledore, when he drank it. But what do I know about Horcruxes?
I’m afraid we’ve totally lost the Triwizard Cup now.
Mia you are quit right; it is time to snap this discussion here.
If you wanted to keep the discussion you could drop a line on horcruxes-a-summary (In post 211 I tried to describe Dumbledore’s state of mind there). I you are not interesting never mind, there so much elsewhere to discuss.
It’s my first time here and I just stumble upon this discussion.
regarding the portkey, why did they have to wait to so long? Why couldn’t Moody just give Harry a portkey ealier? I think it’s because a portkey doesn’t work on the grounds of hogwarts.
So why does a portkey work in the labyrinth? If I remember correctly, the labyrinth was so big that it extended beyond the grounds of hogwarts.
Hi Gene,
I suppose that’s possible. Dumbledore sent Harry back to Hogwarts from the ministry by portkey. So there’s another instance.
It’s one of those situations where it was necessary for the plot and we can go looking for explanations, within the facts, to make it plausible.
That’s the fun of it.
Matthew
Hello Gene, and welcome to this site! I like your idea that portkeys don’t work within the Hogwarts grounds, that would certainly explain something. It would be logic, as well, because the safety measure that nobody can apparate into Hogwarts would be useless if anybody could simply use a portkey instead. And why should Draco be in such pains repairing the Vanishing Cabinet if a portkey would work just the same? Then again, Harry traveled into Hogwarts by portkey twice, once from the graveyard with the Triwizard cup and once from the Ministry of Magic.
But maybe that was because Dumbledore “programmed†those keys, something that Crouch junior couldn’t have done.
P.S.: It might also explain why Harry didn’t return into the center of the maze, but outside, to where the audience was. The Triwizard Cup might originally have been a portkey that would transport the winner out of the maze once he’d touched it. Crouch just manipulated the destination, but couldn’t have turned any other item into a viable portkey within the school.
Gene, welcome. Interesting suggestion, but I don’t think it works. Dumbledore sent Harry and Ron from his own office to 12 Grimmauld by portkey in OotP after Mr. Weasley had been attacked.
FWIW, I do think it’s possible that the rules about what is possible may be different in defined place – for example inside the Headmaster’s office.
I can well imagine that the founders may have wanted ways (that were in their tight control) to ensure that they would not themselves be frustrated and limited by the enchantments that protected Hogwarts.
Just as Dumbledore was able to mutter the counter-enchantments as he and Harry flew past the magical protections at the boundaries of the School in Chapter 27 of HBP. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suppose that there is a general ban on the use of portkeys to get into and out of Hogwarts, but that Dumbledore has ways to circumvent this in specific ways or according to certain limits (such as sending Harry via portkey to his office in OotP.
I agree that various details like this are not adequately explained in the text. At least not yet.
A good point, seriously_black.
I’m sure that Dumbledore can circumvent the security measures. All portkeys that worked within Hogwarts seem to have been created by Dumbledore, so far. That’s why I assume that the Triwizard Cup may have been a functioning portkey already, one to take the winner out of the maze – Crouch just manipulated it. That might be a possible explanation for two things:
1) Why Crouch didn’t use another (simpler) item, and
2) Why the portkey carried Harry to a place outside the maze.
Mia,
You may be right. It would make a lot of sense that way.
Perhaps Rowling had something like that in mind, but thought it was an incidental detail that didn’t need to be included. If so, it’s a pity because two sentences would have explained it and would have made the plot make more sense.
Not that it isn’t still a good story without it.
S_B, I was wrong. I’ve just reread the scene, it was indeed Crouch who turned the Cup into a Portkey. Too bad…
Okay – thanks for checking and letting us know. Oh well, it was an interesting speculation.