Horcruxes: A Summary

It was requested by someone in a comment a few weeks ago that I lay out a summary of horcruxes thus far, and so here is my feeble attempt to do that. We’re addressing here the questions, What are the known horcruxes, and what are the possibilities for other horcruxes? Voldemort wanted to have his soul split into 7 pieces, so we’d expect 6 horcruxes in addition to the portion of his soul the resides in his own body (p. 503). As we go through this, I’ll add page numbers from Half-Blood Prince as an easy reference for you (I’m using the Scholastic publication for USA).

Let’s start with what we know for sure:
1. Tom Riddle’s diary. This is definitely a horcrux, and we know it has been destroyed (pp. 500-501).
2. Marvolo’s ring. Definitely a horcrux, and destroyed by Dumbledore.

Now, let’s move to objects that are very likely horcruxes:
3. Slytherin’s locket.
4. Hufflepuff’s cup.
Of both of these, Dumbledore said,

I would be prepared to bet – perhaps not my other hand – but a couple of fingers, that they became horcruxes three and four (p. 505).

Since Dumbledore is so certain, there is a very high likelihood that these two are horcruxes, especially with what we know of the journey to the cave to find the locket and the mystery of RAB. There may be some room for Dumbledore to be wrong about the cup, but it’s highly improbable.

That leaves us with two: Here’s where things get sticky. Dumbledore figures that since Voldemort desires objects with a powerful magical history for horcruxes, that he would have searched for relics of the other two houses: Ravenclaw and Gryffindor (p. 505). Dumbledore cannot say whether or not Voldemort ever found a Ravenclaw relic, but he is quite confident that “the only known relic of Gryffindor [the sword] remains safe” (p. 505). This does not, however, lead us to the conclusion that there is no Gryffindor relic about which Dumbledore does not know, for throughout the rest of the conversation, a Gryffindor horcrux remains a possibility (though a Ravenclaw horcrux is more probable). Let’s spend a few words on Dumbledore’s speculations, and then a little time on common speculations of readers.

Dumbledore’s Speculations

Dumbledore suspects Nagini as a horcrux. His theory goes this way: Since Voldemort saved horcrux creation for significant deaths, he planned to create his sixth after the murder of Harry, which failed. After he returned to power, he needed a sixth, and so he used the murder of Frank Bryce to create a horcrux from Nagini (p. 506). Given this speculation, Dumbledore’s theory of horcruxes is summarized by Harry in this way:

…the diary’s gone, the ring’s gone. The cup, the locket, and the snake are all intact, and you think there might be a Horcrux that was once Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s? (p. 507)

Dumbledore calls this “an admirably succinct and accurate summary.” So if Dumbledore is correct, the last two horcruxes shape up this way:

5. Ravenclaw or Gryffindor Relic.
6. Nagini.

Other Speculations

Dumbledore has been wrong before, and even if his theory is correct, it leaves one horcrux (the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw one) a mystery to us. What are some other options out there in the world of Harry Potter fandom?

Perhaps the most controversial of theories is that in some way, either Harry or Harry’s scar is a horcrux, accidentally. We can go back and forth forever about whether accidental horcruxes are possible or whether Harry or his scar could be a horcrux at all. The bottom line is, we can’t know for sure. Absolute certainty on any theory would be unwise, because JKR is bound to surprise you. But an accidental horcrux creation in Harry or his scar might cause an interesting situation: If Dumbledore’s theory is correct, and Harry’s scar happens to be a horcrux, then there would have been 7 horcruxes created, not just six. Follow me here:

(1) Riddle’s diary, (2) the ring, (3) the locket, (4) the cup, (5) a Ravenclaw or Gryffindor relic, (6) Harry, accidentally and without Voldermort’s knowledge, and (7) Nagini. Of course, with the early destruction of the Riddle diary, there would still be no more than 7 at any given time. But the overall creation of 7 horcruxes and not 6 would throw Harry’s count off by one as he seeks to destroy them. One can imagine the intensity of a final duel between Harry and Voldemort. Harry approaches him, confident that he has destroyed every horcrux, and killing Voldemort will destroy him forever, only to have Voldemort reveal to Harry that he (Harry himself) is a horcrux.

We’re working through the possibilities of Harry as a horcrux in the comments section of my previous post, Is Harry a Horcrux? – join us if you’ve got theories about it!

From this point onward, everything concerning horcruxes is high speculation. The tiara in the Room of Requirement has been suggested by some. Others have posited the Sword of Gryffindor or the Sorting Hat, but these are nigh unto impossible. Dumbledore says the Sword is safe, and the Sorting Hat talks – and we know from the diary what happens when horcruxes come to life in any way. Fawkes has been suggested, but I find this more unlikely than all the rest. The feather from Fawkes in Voldemort’s wand, however…well, perhaps another time.

Feel free to include your ideas, theories, and speculations in the comments.

327 thoughts on “Horcruxes: A Summary

  1. There is an additional Gryffindor relic, although it is highly unlikely it is a horcrux: the sorting hat. It belonged to Godric, but was imbued with magic from all of the hogwarts founders. Just an intersting tidbit. (Book 4, during the sorting ceremony)

  2. regarding the number of horcruxes… assuming harry is indeed a horcrux, which i suspect.. what if he IS the gryffindor relic? the last descendant or something? that would keep the number of horcruxes at 7.. including the one in voldermort himself. i don’t know. what do you think??

  3. It’s possible, of course, that Harry is the “Gryffindor” horcrux, but it’s highly unlikely that LV would have KNOWN Harry was a horcrux until sometime in Book 5. So chronologically, it wouldn’t change the number of horcruxes, since he would have made Nagini a horcrux (with Frank Bryce’s murder) prior to his discovery that Harry was a horcrux.

    I think it much more likely that LV had a Ravenclaw horcrux and not a Gryffindor when he went off to murder Harry.

  4. While reading this and the discussion on Harry being a Hocrux or not, a thought popped into my head.

    That foul nave Dolores Umbridge completely vanished from the story of HBP. She seemed to be quite an evil character, as well. Suppose she is a servant of Voldemort, and while serving her time as Headmaster of Hogwarts, she allowed him to make the sword of Gryffindor (or the hat, for that matter) his final Hocrux? It would mean he made it recently after his return to power, but it is a possibility.

  5. Clay, a very interesting thought indeed. There is always the potential that Umbridge is working for LV, though my guess is that she’s meant to be a bit of a caricature of bad, self-serving educators and politicians.

    If she is working for LV, however, I think two things would make me hesitate about her letting the Sword of Gryffindor become a horcrux:

    1. If I recall correctly, when Umbridge attempted to get to Dumbledore’s office after he was ejected from the school, she was unable, and had to use her own office as the headmaster’s. So she wouldn’t have ever had access to the sword.

    2. When Dumbledore said he knew that the only known Gryffindor relic was safe, my guess is (though I can’t be sure) that this means that he inspected it for horcruxes. After all, we do have that pensieve memory in which it looks like Tom Riddle did something with his wand before leaving the office, and I’m sure Dumbledore had noticed that and inspected the office for any evidence of foul play.

    These objections aside, you still never know. I’ve tried to stay as open to any possibilities as I can, given how good JKR is at plot twists and surprises.

    Thanks for your comments.

  6. What about Tom Riddle’s trophy for services to the school when he got Hagrid expelled? It figured prominently in Chamber of Secrets (Ron belched slugs into it while he polished it). And it would certainly be significant to Voldemort.

    Don’t forget that in Goblet of Fire, Priori Incantatem allowed us to see ALL the spells Voldemort performed since Harry’s parents’ deaths, and there isn’t an obvious horcrux among them. No representation of Harry or Nagini comes out of Voldemort’s wand, which would seem to indicate that Voldemort’s wand wasn’t used to turn either Harry or Nagini into a horcrux….Two things came out of Voldemort’s wand that we should consider, though: Wormtail’s silver hand and Frank Bryce’s walking stick. If Wormtail’s hand is a horcrux, Wormtail could repay his life debt to Harry by sacrificing himself (or just his hand). And maybe Frank’s walking stick remains in the Riddle house, booby-trapped and waiting to be discovered, just as the ring was left in the Gaunt house.

  7. Excellent thoughts, Derek. I’d want to add this curve ball: when Voldemort comes back in GoF, he tells his followers that all the spells that could have helped him “required the use of a wand,” which allows for the possibility of certain spells being cast without the requirement of a wand. Could a horcrux spell be just such a spell? We don’t know, of course, but it’s a possibility. In that case, we wouldn’t know whether or not Nagini is a horcrux based on Priori Incantatem.

  8. You said that:
    (1) Riddle’s diary, (2) the ring, (3) the locket, (4) the cup, (5) a Ravenclaw or Gryffindor relic, (6) Harry, accidentally and without Voldermort’s knowledge, and (7) Nagini

    But I would like to correct you that only six horcruxes can exist, as the seventh part of Voldemort’s soul is in his own body, thus summing up the total parts of the soul to 7(the most powerful magical number, of course).

  9. Right…but you’re not really “correcting” me. Re-read the post: the first paragraph explains that the piece of soul in Voldemort’s body is part 7. I don’t recall saying that only 6 horcruxes can exist, especially since I posit a potential theory of 7 + 1 (the 1 piece being in Voldemort’s body).

  10. I would first of all like to say that I enjoyed sharing all of your theories on the page!!! very interesting, I have made a list based on my own theories for and against “Is Harry a horcrux?” to share with you.

    For:
    1) Harry did have an uncanny link and insight into Voldermorts mind and stronger feelings.

    2) Dumbledore said himself that part of Voldemort’s power or Voldemort did transfer to harry the night the curse back fired, this is why he is a parsel mouth etc..

    Against:
    1) Voldemort suffers unbearable agony if he tries to enter harry, would the same thing happen to a fragmnet of his soul?

    2) Unless harry is an accidental horcrux from the night his parents died, Voldemort has not had easy access to him so could not make him one.

    3) Voldemort treasures his horcruxes with a “magpie like tendancy” he would want to keep it very safe and well gaurded, just like the locket in HBP.

    4) I also think that Voldemort sad as it is would be repulsed by putting something as prescious as a fragment of his soul inside a half-blood and the boy who has been fortold to be his downfall.

    In conclusion I personally do not think that harry is a horcrux,
    I think that harry is the non-evil equivilant to voldemort in the sense that:

    1) They both had no parents,
    2) They both found out they were wizards when they were eleven.
    3) Dumbledore even said they look alike in COS.
    4) They are both half blood.

    Dumbledore said in COS, that it is the choices a person makes that defines them, not where they come from.
    I think that JKR has followed this rule and would have Harry choose to finish Voldemort in the most noble way possible, I also believe that at some point Voldemort will underestimate harry (Dumbledore mentions it as one of his biggest mistakes in HBP) I believe that will be the end of Voldemort, and wouldn’t it be handy if RAB had found other horcruxes and destroyed them also, how do you think Harry will find out who RAB is? no doubt Hermione will be some help! :0)

  11. Kayleigh, excellent thoughts! You’re correct – the entire idea of Harry as a horcrux rests on it being accidental, i.e., it happened that night at Godric’s Hollow, and Voldemort did not know about it until sometime during OotP.

    The accidental horcrux theory explains numbers 2-4 in your “Against” summary. Number one could be explained in this way: If it is not the entirety of Harry, but Harry’s scar that is the horcrux, then Voldemort would still have been trying to possess a boy with a “pure heart” and would have been unable to.

    Excellent connections between Harry and Voldemort – we literary nuts call that a doppleganger.

    I also think you’re on to something by rooting your 7th book speculations in key statements by Dumbledore like the one in COS.

    Nice observations.

  12. Even if Harry went out to destroy all the horcruxes, and then went to kill Voldemort, couldn’t Voldemort have made more Horcruxes possibly… if he somehow found out like 2 of them were destroyed…. or something and then when Harry went to kill him ( thiniking all the horcruxes were destroyed) it wouldnt work or something.
    Think about it. Plus, im pretty sure I know who R.A.B. is.
    Thanks pals! Cassie

    ps. Dont mind my friends… theyre actually pretty hilarious….. and i was just wondering…. are you ppl from England or the U.S.A. ???

  13. Cass, it’s certainly possible that Voldemort could make more horcruxes, though I get the impression from HBP that he’s laying low and letting Death Eaters do most of the work right now, which means he’s probably not doing most of the murdering at the moment. It is plausible, of course.

    So what’s you’re theory on R.A.B.?

    I’m from the US, but I imagine some of our readers/commenters are from England (my statcounter stats show hits from Italy, England, Thailand, and others).

  14. Hey its Cassie.
    I think R.A.B. is Sirius Blacks brother Regulus Black, because he was a L.V. supporter or whatever… but he might have like turned over to the ummmm…. not dark side.
    Thanks Pals, Cassie*

    P.S. Im from the U.S. too!

  15. ummmm…… i saw the thing about Harry Potter and the OoP… i thought they already started filming why r they still looking for a luna?

    plus r u ppl like teenagers or like some creepy old perverts tryin to find out stuff about kids? my friend wanted to know.
    Cassie*

  16. Cass, since a large portion of HP lovers are adults, every Harry Potter site will include both younger and older readers.

  17. Cass,

    Chronologically, I’m what teenagers would call ‘old’. Mentally and spiritually, I’m as young as Hermione, as wise as Dumbledore (OK, maybe not *that* wise), and as childlike as Hagrid. Creepy and perverted – gosh, I hope not! ;-)

  18. hi!
    well i think i actully found out who R.A.B is… i have been looking at jk rowlings interviews and there is one in which she admits that regulus blacks complete name is Regulus Arturus Black = R.A.B!!
    If he really is R.A.B i have been wandering why he became a death eater… i actually have me theories but im in a hurry, maybe some other day i will tell them…

  19. maca, if you could send a link to the interview where Regulus’ middle name is mentioned, that would be really helpful!

    Yes, do come back and share you theories with us.

  20. After some quick research, it appears that there is some controversy over the “Arcturus” middle name, including its source. Some claim JKR said it, but no one seems to know for certain.

    So if you could provide an actual interview, that would be great.

  21. Hello,
    Is everyone assuming that the locket horcrux is actually destroyed? I know RAB said he/she intended to destroy it as soon as possible and that the process would probably kill them… But has it happened?

    Matt

  22. Matt, I don’t think it’s safe to assume the locket is destroyed for certain, thought it certainly does look that way.

  23. Has anyone thought that perhaps Dumbledore left part of his soul in one of his possesions, therefore not actually dying, but taking a lesser form? Perhaps the sword of gryffindor?

  24. Mike, some have speculated that Dumbledore created a horcrux. Many think that Fawkes is Dumbledore’s horcrux.

    I think this theory is highly unlikely for two reasons:

    1. Dumbledore hates the Dark Arts, and horcrux creation is most definitely a Dark Art.

    2. Dumbledore is the character in the books who is teaching us to “die well,” so to speak. Voldemort’s great error is thinking that there is nothing worse than death. Dumbledore knows there are a lot of things worse than death, so I don’t think Dumbledore would ever create a horcrux. See my post on The Finality of Death for more.

  25. matt,

    As far as we know dumbledor is a good person and is uncapable to separate his soul in 2!!

    i think that if regulus is rab and did not manage to destroy the locket then it probably is the locket that harry and the rest could not open while cleaning siriuses house… but im not sure…

    oh and by the way i cant find the pag which i found jk rowling admiting regulus second name is arcturus… but i asked a friend which was with me and she said that the pag is not very trustworthy… and it was in spanish…

  26. I agree with you that Dumbledore would never take part in the creation of a horcrux and I never said he would.

    But what does intrigue me is the headmasters/headmistresses paintings in Dumbledore’s office. One of the paintings says that the former headmasters/ headmistresses are sworn to assist the current school head. This seems a bit more than just normal paintings around the school. Dumbledore, it appears, confided in these paintings and they helped him to clarify his thoughts.

    As a result Dumbledore, and his wisdom, will not be completely absent from the coming story .

    Any thoughts?

    Matt

  27. Matt, sorry if I misunderstood you.

    I agree with you. We will hear from Dumbledore in some way through his headmaster painting in Book 7.

  28. hey!

    i have a question…

    doesnt anyone find it wierd that dumbledor look so peaceful when he died?… after all it was kind of a shock… take cedric for example… he “looked” dead… dumbledor looked like he was sleeping…

  29. maca, good observation. Remember, Dumbledore is the character in the series who is teaching us to “die well,” so to speak. Remember his reaction to Harry’s realization that Nicholas Flamel would die without the stone – “To the well-organized mind, death is the next great adventure.”

    So we would expect him to be peaceful at his death (especially if the “stoppered death” theory is correct, and Dumbledore was on death’s doorstep throughout the whole book anyway).

  30. yes, i agree… but does that mean cedric was bad?? i think there might be something behide it all… after all he was supposed to be shocked… unless he new he was going to die…

  31. Um……… I alwas thought Dumbledore would be able to talk in his painting. Thats All I got to say.

    k thanks pals *CASSIE*

    i dont know if Dumbledore was surprised about his death. i know this sounds shockiing or whatever, and i dont want to get shot for saying this or anything, but u think Dumbledore Malfoy and Snape like…. planned this stuff together?
    ” I trust Severus Snape” says Dumbledore….. maybe 4 a different reason, but um… i dont think Dumbledore is evil, just a thought. Please dont kill me. haha jk

  32. maca, no, I don’t think it means Cedric was evil. Cedric was taken entirely bt surprise (and he was also very young – not thinking about death anytime soon). Dumbledore was prepared to die and probably knew it was coming.

    cass, I tend to think Dumbledore and Snape planned it, but not Malfoy. Malfoy really thought he was carrying out the Dark Lord’s orders, and he also really thought Snape was helping him. I think, in reality, Snape and Dumbledore both knew exactly what would happen in such a situation as occurred on the Astronomy Tower.

  33. Cass,
    I also don’t think that Dumbledore planned it with Draco. I think that Dumbledore was genuinely trying to convince Malfoy that his actions were wrong and that he should come over to Dumbledore’s side. Also, I don’t think that Dumbledore would have been happy with the other, uncareful attempts on his life ie, the locket and the poisoned mead and the victoms of these being his students ie Katie and Ron.

    Matt

  34. I keep thinking that there are less Horcruxes than Dumbledore and Harry thought there were. Let’s say that Voldemort created 6 Horcruxes and had the 7th part of his soul in his body before going after Harry. Then when he tried to kill Harry and it backfired, didn’t he use one of his horcruxes to stay alive? If so that leaves only 5 horcruxes and the one in LV. Then Harry destoyed the diary and Dumbledore destroyed the ring, that leaves 3 horcruxes and the one in in LV instead of the 4 Harry thinks he is searching for. Also, it is mentioned that he may not have created all of his horcruxes before trying to kill Harry and that he may have used Nagini. How would he have done this if he was barely alive and did not have his powers. So maybe there are only 2 and the one in him. Maybe RAB did destroy the locket, leaving only 1 and the one in LV.

  35. jj, thanks for the comments. I don’t think Voldemort has to “use up” a horcrux in order to stay alive. I think the mere existence of other, separate parts of the soul keep him alive.

    As for Nagini, we really don’t know how a horcrux is created, so we don’t know whether Voldemort would have been able to create one in his weakened state. It is a good consideration, though.

  36. IF nagini is a horcrux did voldemort make her one before o after the 4th book?? because is he made her before then she probably is not… mmm… im tryiing to think to to explain it… if some need to use a wand to transform an object into a horcrux then when harrys and voldemorts wand joind and every spell that voldemort had done came out… the was no sigh of nagini being a horcrux…

    i tried my best to explain it in engilish… it would have been better in spanish, but i tried! :D

  37. I do not believe that created 6 horcruxes (the 7th being in his body that attacked the Potters). I believe that he split his soul intentionally 7 times (which would creat 7 horcruxes, plus the part of his soul he lost the night he attacked the potters). Here is the breakdown based on this:

    Destroyed:
    1. Original body
    2. Slytherin’s ring
    3. Voldemort’s school diary

    Not destroyed:
    4. His current body
    5. Slytherin’s locket (which R.A.B.
    supposedly removed and hopefully
    destroyed)
    6. Hufflepuff’s cup
    7. Nagini (possible)
    8. An object of Gryffindor’s/Ravenclaw’s (or
    Harry Potter himself as some believe)

    If Nagini is an actual horcrux, then it would be likely that this supports what I’m saying of him splitting his soul 7 times (into 8 pieces). If Nagini is not, then he just split his soul into 7 pieces. Either way would fit his passion for magical numbers (splitting it 7 times or into 7 pieces).

    Just my thoughts

  38. Oh ya, one more thing. The theory that Harry is a horcrux is supported by 2 major things. One is obvious, if he is then that would explain why he can speak parseltongue, glimpse into Voldemort’s mind, etc. etc. you all already know this. The second is less obvious and I haven’t seen it posted or talked about before. If he is, then it stands to reason that he would share a mental connection with other living horcruxes, this includes Nagini (now we are assuming that Nagini is in fact a horcrux). The part about his mental connection to Voldemort could be explained as he was marked etc. But why would he have a mental connection with the snake unless they were both horcruxes? Any thoughts?

  39. Travis (and all readers),

    I’m of the belief that Harry (or his scar) is a Horcrux. I’ll try to keep my reasons brief(ish). ;)

    If I’m correct, we do not yet know of a witness to the happenings of the night at Godric’s Hollow. How then, are we certain that he tried to use Avada Kendavra on Harry?

    What if instead he used James’s murder to turn Harry into a Horcrux (He says Lily doesn’t need to die)? This would not be beyond him, in fact it might even appeal. He doesn’t need to hear the second half of the prophecy to know how wonderfully ironic it would be to place a part of himself in the baby who was supposedly fated to be his downfall.

    People say that LV wouldn’t try to kill Harry if he’d made him a Horcrux. Not true! When he made Harry one (I don’t agree you can make them accidentally, btw, it seems that to commit an act so evil and against nature it would have to be an act of extreme will), LV had not yet experienced the half-life that’s said to be worst than the leanest ghost. But once he had, the choice would be clear: Kill Harry and sacrifice one of his Horcruxes in the process, or return to this half-life, potentially never being able to return to full strength (not to mention a body) again.

    As for the graveyard and Priori Incantatem; no, there’s not evidence of a Horcrux spell. There’s no evidence of any spells except murders!

    Someone battle me back and forth on this, I’m trying to find points that I can’t shoot down! :)

    I don’t know about LV making his soul split more or less than 7 ways. Seven is said to be an extremely magical number within the books. Until I get better ideas, I’m guessing this was LV’s train of thought….

    1. His Diary (an homage to himself. guh.)
    2. Slytherin’s ring
    3. Slytherin’s locket
    4. Hufflepuff’s cup
    5. Something of Ravenclaw’s (I’ve heard of a necklace and tiara, but I think this is all from websites and not books)
    6. Voldemort was all set to grab something of Gryffindor’s, but then came the prophecy and Harry is a much more clever option.

    Anyone? Anyone?

  40. It was said in GoF that the only person that had survived the Avada Kedavra curse was Harry Potter (the fake Moody’s first lecture with the 4th years). No, if Harry is a horcrux (and I do mean IF), it has to be certainly accidental. Think about this, if Voldemort intentionally made him one, why would he try to kill him in the graveyard at the end of GoF? Me personally, I’m still not convinced that he is, although that would be a wicked twist. I think, that with the help of Hermione and Ron (and undoubtedly others), he will track down the last horcruxes, duel Voldemort, and die anyways. Life loves a tragedy. Although, I do not think the 7th book will be the last, unless it is longer than TotF, because there are still so many unanswered questions and so much to do. Also, Harry’s magical knowledge is still very limited compared to Voldemorts (and his Death Eaters) even though he has accomplished more than any wizard ever has where Voldemort is concerned. I think there will be 2 or maybe even 3 more books since Harry, Ron and Hermione have decided not to return to Hogwarts.

  41. Oh ya, to your point about him not wanting to return to his half-life, I think that he would still prefer it to not being alive at all. At the end of GoF, in the graveyard, he said something to the effect of (now don’t quote me on the exact words) “I was not alive, but neither was I dead.” I think that he preferred the option of having a chance to come back, especially when he said something like “you know of the great steps I have taken to be immortal” to his Death Eaters (once again don’t quote me on the exact wording). True he didn’t know what it would be like to experience the near-death that he did that night in Godric Hollow, but I think he still would prefer it. Also, now that his Death Eaters KNOW that he CAN come back, they would not stop looking for him. When he was beaten the first time, most of them thought him dead and gone forever but now they know different and it would not take long for them to find him again.

  42. Lots to respond to here! If I’m responding to your comments, I’ll put your name in bold.

    maca, good thoughts about nagini. My response would be as follows: I think JKR may give us a clue to why no horcrux spell came out of the wand when his wand connecte with Harry’s. When Voldemort comes back, he makes mention of spells that “require the use of a wand.” This would be a pointless statement if there wasn’t such thing as a spell that did not require a wand. Hence, I submit the possibility that the horcrux spell does not require wand use, and so would not have shown up during the wand connection. What do you think? (by the way, I understood your English just fine).

    Mara, ok, let’s debate! We need more of a reason for LV to want to make Harry a horcrux than your assertion that it’s “brilliant.” LV works alone, does not want ot be dependent on anyone, and destroys any potential threat on his life. Why would he deliberately make a horcrux out of his prophecied vanquisher, hence allowing him to live AND making him dependent upon Harry’s existence to stay alive?

    You indeed have a good point about needing to really mean a spell when you cast it. But we still don’t know the process of horcrux creation, any way you look at it. If it’s a wandless spell and a complex process, he may have been in the middle of (or just completed) the process of creating one (on his own wand maybe?) when he turned on Harry, and some sort of accidental horcrux occurred in Harry’s scar when Avada Kedavra backfired.

    Your objection that at priori incantantem there’s no evidence of any spells except for murders would destroy your theory as well, since he would have cast a horcrux spell on Harry after killing his parents, and we saw his parents. So your objection against the Nagini horcrux would also apply to a Harry horcrux (unless my theory about it being a wandless spell is correct).

    Bandar, I see where you’re going on this, but any way you look at it, it would seem that making 7 horcruxes would result in 8 parts of Voldemort’s soul, hence exceeding the most powerful magic number (which Voldemort would not want to do). If 8 were created, it was accidental, in my opinion. (See the theory in this post). Also, JKR has said over and over again that there are only 7 books.

    Stay tuned for two or three new posts on horcruxes in the very near future!

  43. It is everyone’s assumption that Volemort tried to use Avada Kendavra and then failed. No one was witness to it, they just think that must be what happened. I’ve read (I’ll see if I can find where) that JKR has mentioned the importance in the location of Harry’s scar. Avada Kendavra hits you in the chest, Harry’s scar is on his forehead.

    Character wise, I think it’s imporant that Voldemort is incredibly arrogant and seems to underestimate those who he thinks are inferior. Is he really making himself dependent upon Harry? When (assuming he did, of course) he made Harry a Horcrux, he still had all six others. What threat could this child actually be, and even if he was…

    The phrase “the closer you are to danger the farther you are from harm” keeps playing in my head. If Voldemort were to store a piece of himself in his supposed vanquisher without anyone knowing, it seems more to me like insurance that no one would ever get to that Horcrux. It’s the best hiding spot I could think of for one.

    I’ve been trying to figure out the whole Priori Incantatem thing, and I think that your theory about Horcruxes being a wandless spell might fit in. I like the idea of LV’s wand, but it was clear (to me at least) that LV wanted his Horcruxes safe but far from him, hidden away. If someone ever were to ‘kill’ Voldemort then his wand would likely be destroyed too. They wanted to destroy Harry’s just for his patronus that saved Dudley! :)

    Just so you know, I’m not dead set that Harry is one. It’s just such a clever idea that seems to be well set up in the books. JKR said (when HBP came out) that it was likely that some fans could identify one of the Horcruxes by carefully rereading the books, and I can’t spot what else it would be.

  44. Mara, you’re correct – it has been pretty much assumed by all that LV attempted Avada Kedavra on Harry. The green light Harry occasionally remembers would lead us to think that as well, though that green light may have been the shot that killed Lily. You raise a good point. JKR is so good at narrative misdirection, perhaps LV did not fire the AK curse at Harry (though I still think he did).

    You’re absolutely right about LV’s character traits. I might want to counter, however, by saying that LV was the one who put stock in the prophecy, and his greatest fear is death, so he would likely want to eliminate his prophesied vanquisher.

    At the same time…putting a horcrux in Harry would effectively thwart the prophecy altogether, wouldn’t it? Because it would no longer be true that “neither can live while the other survives,” because, indeed, Harry’s very existence would guarantee Voldemort’s. Fascinating.

    You’ve added a lot for us to think about!

  45. Has no-body considered the fact that since LV has risen again that he has not created more Horcruxes. DD tells us that Lv knows the diary has been destroyed, so surely LV would make another Horcruxe, maybe from madam bones. I think wormtail is a possible horcrux, thats the reason snapes got him locked up. LV will never die, dumbeldore says the only way to win is to fifght and fight till you keep at bay and he also says to LV there are other ways to destroy a man tom, i dont think harry will kill LV. Thanks all xx

  46. Matt.w, thanks for joining the conversation! I’m not sure what the tie would be between LV rising again and not having anymore horcruxes. He doesn’t actually use his horcruxes to come back to life…they just guarantee that he will remain alive if his body is destroyed.

    I think the horcrux discussion in Half-Blood Prince makes it pretty clear that LV can be defeated entirely, once all his horcruxes are destroyed.

  47. hii!

    real short… maybe wormtails silver hand is a horcrux… after alll it was donde right after wormtail killed cedric with VOLDEMORTS wand! im not sure if this is correct because it was done by wormtail but with voldemorts wand…

    ohh and another thing!! in an english news paper they said that james potter father is called Charlus potter and his mother is Dorea Black! the pag where i got it is in spanish but if u want it i can send it later!

    bye

  48. Maca,

    I’d love to see the page with the Dorea Black thing! :) Makes very interesting ties w/Sirius!!

    Matt.w,

    I’ve thought about why LV didn’t create more Horcruxes to replace the old ones. I’ve come up with two theories:

    a. Everyone’s right on the equal division of soul when you make a Horcrux (I’m dubbing this the 1/64th Theory if that’s okay?), so any Horcruxes that LV would make would be very weak and leave him very weak as well.

    b. There really is power in a seven part soul and creating more divisions of his soul (replacements) would weaken that.

    Travis,
    Thanks buddy! :) I like how you brought up the light, maybe it was Lily. Maybe the Horcrux spell also casts a green light?

    I’m really loving the debate on your site, no one is mean and great ideas are coming out!

  49. maca, I have come across that suggestion (Wormtail’s hand) as well. My hesitation would be that, though Wormtail has been faithful, he is also a coward, and LV knows it. I’d be hard-pressed to think LV would entrust a piece of his soul into something connected so closely to Wormtail. But it is a possibility.

    Mara, two additional thoughts on LV creating more horcruxes:

    1. He knows the diary is destroyed, but does he know the ring is? He may only be aware that one is destroyed.

    2. We have almost no inkling whatsoever into what Voldemort is doing throughout the duration of Half-Blood Prince. Perhaps he has created more, and we don’t know about it (though I doubt it, personally, simply from the literary standpoint of having to introduce new horcruxes, their finding, and their destruction. JKR already has so much to include in Book 7).

    And thank you…I do try very hard to keep discussion here respectful as well as intelligent. I appreciate everyone’s contributions.

  50. The thing about Pettigrew is that he is also currently indebted to Harry for his life- when Harry had mercy on him and stood in front of him when Remus and Sirius were about to kill him (or was Harry warding Remus and Sirius from becoming murderers?).

    Dumbledore makes a point of telling Harry that this is something that Voldemort would not be at all happy about. One of his lieutenants having a life debt to his prophesised vanquisher. But Voldemort believes that Pettigrew is completely cowed and is loyel only because of fear.

    My guess is that Pettigrew is going to be instrunmental in the fall of Voldemort.

    Matt

  51. mara,

    here is the page:
    http://www.eldiccionario.org/personajes/indice.htm

    the only thing is that it is in spanish… but it still works! :P
    there is also a family tree
    if u see the blacks there is a family tree conecting almost everybody, even the potters…

    travis,

    i agree that voldemort thinks wormtail is a coward, but maybe that is the thing… wormtail is afraid to leave voldemort so having a horcrux that close to him may be helpful… by having wormtail that close to him he can be absolutly sure he still has 1 horcrux left ( the hand )! he knows he is still inmortal!
    that may be the horcrux which we thought might be nagini…

  52. maca, I can’t recall…do we have any inclination that LV knows that Pettigrew is indebted to Harry? That would be a determining factor, I think. If LV is unaware of that, the “Wormtail’s hand” theory is plausible, for the reasons you stated. It wouldn’t even have to be instead of nagini; it could be in replacement of the lost diary horcrux.

  53. Although we don’t really know that Voldemort suspects that Pettigrew is in Harry’s debt, the conversation in the Riddle mansion between Voldemort and Wormtail (GoF) is fairly indicative.

    Pettigrew attempts to talk Voldemort out of his intention to kill Harry but it seems that Voldemort is suspicious of his motives. Pettigrew is swiftly bullied/threatened back into line but it seems that there is doubt sown.

    Matt

  54. Hello!
    well, I havent got much time,
    but I just wanted to say one thing.
    Nagini,
    Dumbledore suspects Nagini is a Horcrux. We of course can’t prove this is true, but if you think about it…It realy could be true..
    Nagini is highly protected by Voldemort AND is controled by Voldemort.
    The thing is, it is a snake, and definetly acts like one.
    lastly, remember the dream Harry had when Mr Weasley was bitten.
    Remeber Harry was a SNAKE in the dream, not, of course, a human. He was Voldemort right?…So, if you think about it, it could of been Voldemorts horcrux in Nagini.

    well, thats all:D…hope you guys pass through my flogs:D…:
    http://www.fotolog.net/magic_em
    http://www.fotolog.net/hp_magical_three
    http://www.fotolog.net/hpotter_fans

    ciao!

    ho!..And I agree with the thing of wormtail:P..

  55. hey!!
    wow no new comments!!
    its been a long time since i last came!
    well mmm… i was wondering how harry was going to get the horcruxes if he said he would not go back to hogwarts… i think he should finish hogwarts and be ready but can he really face all the horcruxes and voldemort with out his last year of school??
    just wondering!
    thats it

    maca!

  56. hi maca!
    well, i thought about that to!
    and well, JK said hw WILL finish school.
    not much to say realy,
    apart from telling you your web page is awsome!!
    I allways visit it!:D
    ho!..and please…please..tell me how to make a web page…I’ve been dying to make one and well, I haven’t had any luck.
    well, that would be it!
    bye!

  57. Maca, remember what Dumbledore said was “the power the Dark Lord knows not”? It was Harry’s ability to love. I think one of the key points JKR is trying to make is that it’s not about magical ability and talent – it’s about our choice to love. How this will play out, I don’t know, but it is not one more year of training that he needs to defeat Voldemort. It’s to figure out how love is the power that he knows not.

    Ginny, it all depends on what kind of website you want to make. If you want a blog, like this website, you can sign up for free ones at blogger.com or wordpress.com. Just sign up and follow the directions; it’s really quite easy. If that’s not what you’re looking for, then you need to learn how to build websites (or have someone build one for you), buy a domain name and web space from a provider, and learn how to use FTP software to upload it. All kind of complex if you’re just getting started.

  58. Thanx Travis!
    I guess I’ll begin with a blog, i’m not very good with computers and stuff. THANX!…
    I think the power of love will realy make a difference. I’me sure JK will prove to harry that love can, ofcourse, save you. It might not be a power, as you said, but I guess without love, there is no friendship, no love, no one to rely on. Get it?….I think Voldemorts weakness is that. Im not at all good at explaining, but my point is, love DOES and WILL make a difference.

    Maca: I know im kinda late for saying this but. ¿the hand?…I’m not sure its a horcrux, allthough, as you might remember, the posibilities are high. After all, to make a horcrux, someone has to be killed (Cedric)…and remember in the fourth book a part in where powers shooot out of Voldys wand?…(dont remeber well, but it was somthing like that)…Ho!..and I wanted to add something, I dont know if you lot know, but JK said there is a hiden horcrux in one of the books…could it be in grimmauld place?…youknow, the little box that didint open..might something be in there??…

    Ginny!…
    thanx a million Travis!

  59. hi!
    me again:p..just a little question..how do you change the background of the blog?…i’ve just finished making my acount but am having a hard time fixing it:P
    pls help me!

    –>G i n n y

  60. Yes, most people think the horcrux that we could easily find is the locket at Grimmauld Place.

    Whichever blog client you’re using (Blogger or WordPress), there should be options available to change the background. Look around the site once you’ve logged in. You should be able to find something about “themes,” and there should be a selection of alternate themes.

  61. What I think the Horcruxes are.
    1) Ring
    2) Diary
    3) Nagini
    4) Hufflepuff cup-Hufflepuff
    5) Sorting Hat-Griffindor
    6) Locket-Slytherin
    7) Book in Restricted section that screams-Ravenclaw

  62. jk rowling has said on her web site that the sorting hat is not a horcrux!!
    so the other option is the sword but it has been in dumbledors office ever since harry took it out from the hat… the only thing that i can think of is where was the sword before it was in the hat??…

  63. BjAx,
    I don’t think so. The cup is something that is important to Durmstrang and Beauxbatons as well as Hogwarts. And Voldemort seems interested in objects that are personally important to him or to the founders of Hogwarts. It’s a good idea though.

    I brings something to my mind that I’m not sure I read in the stories- hopefully someone can correct me. It was Dumbledore stating that objects that Voldemort would want to use as Horcruxes would already be powerful magical objects. Why? is it because of their significance to the wizarding world and therfore add to the reluctance of wizards in destroying these items OR is it that already powerful magical objects would take steps to protect themselves eg. Marvolo’s ring striking back at Dumbledore (and possibly killing him?) and Riddle’s diary’s efforts to possess Ginny and open the Chamber of Secrets, and the potion in the cup that would have killed Dumbledore if Harry wasn’t there.

    If my idea is correct and not just something I have remembered incorrectly, then the Triwizard Cup is certainly a target for Voldemort. A good question to ask ourselves is “What are some other powerful magical objects that we know of?”.

    I’m starting to lean away from Nagini being a horcrux and being something more like a familiar. She is certainly a loyal and powerful servant to Voldemort and he seems to control her but this could be his parcelmouth ability? A living thing seems to be a bit frail for Voldemort’s goal of immortality.

    Matt

  64. You can make six horcruxes and keep the seventh part of your soul in your own body. But maybe seven is the limit, so that if you make seven horcruxes (because you have made one by mistake without realising it) you could end up with no soul left in your own body at all. So – Harry (or his scar) is a Horcrux but Voldemort doesn’t realise this. In the last book Harry and his friends destroy 4 (or 3) more horcruxes and then go after Voldemort. In the final duel, Voldemort destroys Harry and in doing so destroys the final Horcrux and himself. What do you think?

    Mutually assured destruction, as we used to say during the Cold War.

  65. Barb, interesting theory, but my guess is that if Harry’s scar is a horcrux, Voldemort knows about it. Why else would he specifically give instructions NOT to kill him in Half-Blood Prince?

  66. Travis,
    He may give specific instructions not to kill Harry because he believes that he can use Harry to gain knowledge about Dumbledore and The Order of the Pheonix in the same way that Harry has learned stuff about Voldemort through their mind connection.

    I don’t think that the reasons you have given above is conclusive.

    Matt

  67. How do we know that LV instructions for Harry not being destroyed wasn’t so that the Dark Lord could take care of Harry himself as well? (You know, the typical bad guy wants to make sure things get taken care of properly sort of thing.) Maybe he has some kind of binding curse he wants to perform that would prevent Harry from being able to help out in any possible way after death as well.

  68. Matt and Deborah,

    Those are definitely both points worthy of consideration. I think the horcrux explanation more likely for the following reasons:

    1) If LV ordered Harry not to be killed so he could learn more about Dumbledore and the Order, we have to wonder why he didn’t make any attempt to do so throughout the entirety of Half-Blood Prince.

    2) It is possible LV wanted to just take care of Harry himself, but we should remember this: LV puts a LOT more stock in the prophecy than anyone else. If there were a chance for Harry to be killed without even having to face LV, this would be a more attractive option to him (it seems to me), since that would ensure there was no way for Harry to be on the winning side of the prophecy, “Neither can live while the other survives.”

    But I agree – my theory is not conclusive. Just a theory!

  69. Travis: I thought LV didn’t hear the later part of the prophecy. I’m pretty sure that the “Neither can live while the other survives” line came at the end. Yet, you are correct about LV taking great stock in the prophecy. Since LV trusts no one completely, saving Harry for himself would still fit in my opinion.

    As to LV’s plans for Harry in HBP, I’m afraid my memory is fading somewhat. I just remember Snape saying at the end that Harry is to be dealt with by LV and not anyone else. We also know from GoF that LV is patient and meticulous. WAITING to get more information on the Order etc… would have been consistant with his character. He could have been waiting to try and do everything all at once, which would require a lot of planning. Additionally, didn’t LV cut off his connection to Harry during HBP? Doing so would have been because he couldn’t be sure that he could 1) minipulate Harry again and 2) Keep Harry from finding out his plans. Probing Harry about the Order and DD would have exposed him to these risks. Just some food for though.

    This debating stuff is soooo much fun! :) You guys are great at it too! All this thinking makes me realize it is probably time for me to read HBP again. I just finished OoTP and I was suprised by how many things I had forgotton or missed.

  70. Deborah, you’re right – major brain freeze on my part. LV didn’t hear the entire prophecy. I mean, unless he tapped into Harry’s brain during his conversation with Dumbledore at the end of Order, which I suppose is possible, but would be pure speculation.

  71. Though I haven’t decided whether Nagini is actaully a horcrux, I have some thoughts that would support LV making Harry an INTENTIONAL horcrux for arguments sake, as well as why he could have been so oblivious to his and Harry’s mind connection until OoTP. Bear with me now, as this may be a little difficult to describe and possibly a bit weak.

    1) LV believes the portion of the prophecy he hears and decides that first making Harry a horcrux and then killing him would be the perfect backup plan incase he ever failed. He may think that this horcrux would still serve him even if Harry were dead, or even gambled that one portion of his soul might be worth the risk. (This could also explain why Lily had a choice over life and death, but James didn’t, as JKR mentions this CHOICE was a significant addition to her sacrifice that gave it such powers. James would have been the only death needed since he was the first one killed. Else, why didn’t his sacrifice protect his wife and child like Lilies?)

    2) After Lily refuses to spare herself and dies, LV makes a horcrux of Harry and then tries to kill him. Maybe killing 2 people instead of one weakend the portion of his soul that would be placed into Harry, or it could have caused him to unintentionally place 2 parts of him inside Harry rather than 1. Reguardless, when he tried to kill Harry with a piece, or pieces, of his own soul inside him, the killing curse somehow backfired because of his attempt to destroy a part of himself. The scar could have been where LV’s own soul struck back at him, leaving him practically dead. (The double horcrux theory would most likely support the Dark Lords unawareness of Harry as a horcrux theory because he could have really destroyed one portion in his attempt to kill Harry, not realizing that another lived on, but I won’t get into that possibility as that isn’t the purpose of my arguments at this time.) Who knows?

    3) Seeing that LV’s killing curse backfired, he could have either not realized that Harry was still a horcrux like you mention, OR he could have not realized that there would be a mind/soul connection to this living horcrux. We could say that because since LV had only performed (assumably) inanimate horcruxes up to this point, he didn’t know what would happen entirely if he made a live one. After all, LV was warned that making a living creature into a horcrux could have dangerous or unpredictable outcomes. LV could have caught on to this link later on though, because as his powers grew stronger, so too could have the powers binding him to Harry. Since LV gained back most of his strength by the end of GoF and the beginning of OoTP, this would fit perfectly in the same timeline you give for him to realize that Harry is in fact a horcrux in the first place. Gradually, he would finally realize what is going on.

    Even Nagini being made into a horcrux at the beginning of GoF could still work within that same time frame for this theory. Assuming LV discovered his own link to Nagini right away, which I doubt, he couldn’t guarentee a similar connection exsisted with Harry. Especially since things appeared to have gone terribly wrong the night he made Harry a horcrux. He was probably too focused on his plans to connect the dots, per say, until it became obvious anyhow.

    Having said all of that, I would have to admit that Travis is probably right that LV may have not needed his wand to perform a horcrux curse, because if he did we would have to say goodbye to the Nagini/Frank Bryce theory as well as Harry, or his scar, being made a horcrux prior to the priori incident, because it would have needed to show up in the wand regurgitation sceen. I do like the cane insight though, because if that happened, (I don’t remember well enough) that would still work for Nagini’s transformation into a horcrux. Would we say that Harry’s killing curse didn’t show up because it wasn’t successful then too?

  72. Deborah,
    I don’t think that horcrux creation works like you have stated ie. “I’ll put two part of my soul in this one!”. I think that you’ve just got to split whatever you have to work with. Voldemort wanted to do this seven times ie. make seven horcruxes NOT seven parts to his soul.

    Also we don’t know that Nagini is a horcrux at all. In OOTP it suggests that Voldemort possessed Nagini in book 5 but this does not indicate a horcrux. Voldemort has possessed a number of other characters in the books including Harry and Prof. Quirrell. All we know is that a large snake entered the ministry and was searching for the entrance to a certain room and then attacked Arthur. My immediate thought was that this was Nagini, but I’m sure that… hmmm is Voldemort an animagus? Was it Voldemort in a snake form that did the attacking?

    Horcrux casting may require a wand but the priori incantum incident didn’t show this as Voldemort hasn’t created any new horcruxes since his downfall. They’ve already proved themselves effective. They are not used up by keeping Voldemort in existance. Why make more?

    The only Horcrux that Voldemort knows has been destroyed is the diary. He may know about the ring if Slughorn dobbed him in. He obviously doesn’t check up on them regularly since the locket had been switched some time ago and had not been discovered.

    I’m waiting for the moment in book seven when Harry is yelling at Voldemort “You killed my father!” and Voldemort replies “No. I am your father!” and Harry comes back with “NO! That’s not possible!!!”

    Matt

  73. Matt:

    Your arguments about Nagini being possesed are important and valid. That is exactly why I stated that I wasn’t so sure that she is a horcrux in the first place. (Please note the first sentence of my statement.) The part I mentioned about Nagini was for arguments sake, since so many believe that she is a horcrux, as to how LV wouldn’t be aware of his mind connection to Harry had he had another living horcrux around.

    You must have been in a rush or distracted when you read my comments. I never suggested that LV wanted to divide his soul into 7 parts. I simply stated that he could have “weakend the portion of his soul that would be placed into Harry, or it could have caused him to unintentionally place 2 parts of him inside Harry rather than 1″. Please note the word UNINTENTIONALLY in there, as that is key. This, assuming LV had in fact created all but one division of his soul that he intended, COULD have explained how things went wrong that night. So, I have no idea why you would write “I don’t think that horcrux creation works like you have stated ie. “I’ll put two part of my soul in this one!”.” Additionally, didn’t the books say that everytime a cold blooded murder is committed, the soul is rent? Maybe I’m wrong on that, but if that is the case, then LV could have only been attempting to encase 7 portions of himself, not neccessarily every portion of his soul. Just a side thought.

    Despite all of that, your argument “Horcrux casting may require a wand but the priori incantum incident didn’t show this as Voldemort hasn’t created any new horcruxes since his downfall” however led me to review the graveyard seen. What I found was that you are correct on the wand usage/priori portion, though your explanation is off.

    In priori incantatem, I had assumed that everything that came out of the wand was a complete reversal of spells. Upon review, I saw that LV’s wand was used to conjure up ropes to bind Harry after Cedric’s death (by Wormtail), as well as preform the Cruciatus Curse on Harry a number of times as well as on Avery (by LV) aside from Cedrics murder and Wormtail’s arm. These spells not only required the use of a wand, but failed to show up in the priori incident as well. So, harrah for clearing up that one! :)

    Everyone:

    While reviewing the above mentioned sceens I also noted that Frank Bryce’s cane was with him,as well as in his usage, so the argument that it could be a horcrux seems less likely to me now, though not impossible I suppose. Nice try though!

  74. Hello Deborah,
    I also read that comment by Dumbledore where he stated that when one commits murder the soul us rent. What I took that to mean is that the soul is damaged or wounded or torn. I didn’t take it as being torn in half or into however many pieces. I definately believe that Voldemort has murdered many more times than he has made horcruxes. Dumbledore said that to make a horcrux you needed to do something shockingly brutal like murder. Why I wrote that I didn’t think horcrux creation worked like you had stated is that it’s the murder that does the rending and wounds the soul to a point that is can be broken and a part placed in a horcrux.

    I think the comment about “2″ parts confused me. Surely when Voldemort comes to create a horcrux he’s only got 1 soul to work with. He performs his evil deed that rends his soul and put half his divided soul into the horcrux and keeps the other half in his body. When he come to make another horcrux he still only has one soul to work with. Did you mean that he may have accidently put more of his soul into Harry than he meant to? Or that he made 2 horcruxes when he fiddled with Harry?

    You wrote “Despite all of that, your argument “Horcrux casting may require a wand but the priori incantum incident didn’t show this as Voldemort hasn’t created any new horcruxes since his downfall” however led me to review the graveyard seen. What I found was that you are correct on the wand usage/priori portion, though your explanation is off.”.

    That comment of mine was poorly stated. What I mean to write was that I believe that Voldemort hasn’t made any new horcruxes since he got his wand back as evidenced by the priori incantum not showing anything like that. But even this is off-mark as what would be shown anyway? What would cruciatis look like?

    You are definately correct about the ropes not being shown during the priori incantum sequence. Is this an oversight by Rowling?
    Yes hurrah! We have defintely and finally nailed down that the priori incantum incident is completely inconclusive! :)

    Good commenting

    Matt

  75. Matt: It is very possible that the ropes binding Harry not showing up in priori incantatum is an oversight of JKR. I know that the original hard back book of GoF mentioned Harry’s father comming out of the wand before his mother, but was corrected in subsequent soft bound editions later on. I would have to assume though, that she would have rethought the process through during the correction process and caught any other inconsistancies from that sceen, but one never knows.

    Having said all that, there does remain the fact that there could be another explanation for the ropes not showing up during priori. Creating the arm and killing people both have to do with LIVING things, either the creation of one, or the COMPLETE destruction of one, as LV himself would have had to come out since his curse was rebounded upon himself. Since the ropes are inanimate, one could explain that they don’t fit the exact same mold. So, you are correct to say that priori incantatum incident is inconclusive thus far after all. Though wand usage HAS been shown to have been involved in every regurgitated spell, it can now be seen that it ISN’T the sole determinant (if it is one at all) like was originally purposed.

    As for your question of whether I was refering to 2 portions of LV’s soul, or 2 horcruxes: I was suggesting that 2 portions of LV could have been placed into 1 horcrux (Harry)unintentionally. One of them could have been destroyed by LV’s killing curse meant for Harry, though it destroyed LV’s body as recompense to breaking some unknown law. (Comparable to many people’s belief that suicide is a sin.) That could be one explanation as to why Harry survived.

    As for the rending of the soul, it is true that it could just damage it and not tear it completely. The fact is we don’t know exactly what happends. Good point though. :)

  76. Dumbledore says that Lord Voldemort appears to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for significant deaths.

    Significant Murders by Voldemort:
    The Potters
    Some members of the Order of the Phionix.
    R.A.B – if dead – remember the note.

    It is therefore unlikely that Nagini is a Horcrux – Frank Bryce’s death wasn’t significant.

    http://www.hprab.blogspot.com – some of my theories.

  77. Hi there!

    I’m an avid HP fan as I see you all are. First I must say that I love reading these posting.

    As for my two cents, I have something to add about Harry being a horcrux. Since these horcruxes must be destroyed before LV can be killed, does it not seem unlikely that Harry would be one? He would have to destroy himself would he not? This would then make it very difficult for him to kill LV. I suppose however, that by making LV mortal, he would effectively kill him. Although it remains that Dumbledore tells Harry in HBP that it will also take a powerful magician to kill LV, regardless of the fact that he may be mortal.

    I also think that the fact that Harry can love is significant, because he’ll have the help of his friends; the Weasleys, Hermione and the Order. While LV also has supporters, I think Harry has proven that he has people who are willing to die for him (his parents, Sirius, Dumbledore), not because of him as have many Death Eaters at the hand of LV. Perhaps if Harry does die as a means of destroying the horcrux (himself), one of his loved ones will be able to finish the job.

    On another note, I don’t think Harry wil die in the final book. It would be such a shame, although, as we have seen JKR loves to surprise us. But that’s just my thought. Thanks!!

  78. Good points, except that either Harry has to kill Voldemort or Voldemort has to kill Harry, which makes it impossible for Harry to kill himself to fulfill the prophecy.

    Ben

  79. Actually, Harry does not have to die, necessarily. The horcrux within him would have to be destroyed, but even his death would not ensure the destruction of the horcrux. Horcruxes do exist just fine in inanimate objects.

  80. There is no guarentee that the prophecy HAS to be fulfilled to the T. J.K. Rolling herself made a comment that she felt Macbeth killing Dunkan, though it was prophesized, was brought about because he CHOSE to believe the prophecy which fortold this act in Shakespears “Macbeth”. This to me would persuade me to think that she will write accordingly. This means that though Harry’s participation in LV’s demise is guarenteed due to LV taking stock in the prophecy, it doesn’t mean that Harry will have to completely take care of LV himself. Help in anyway would agree with her assessment. That’s just my personal oppinion anyway.

  81. Hi

    I Would like to bring something forward, (presuming that the Slytherin locket is still safe in Grimauld place) Sirius Black sais (sorry if i get this incorrect) his father put every security spell known to wizard kind on the house. So it is to my assumption that the locket is still there. As Harry is in possesion of the house then surely he can get in and retrieve the locket if or when he Discovers it . But it occured to me that maybe some one else from the family can enter? possibly Bellatrix or Narcissa? afterall The secret keeper Dumbledore is Dead, so the magic might have diminished.

    Its a long shot but i hope it leads to somewhere.Please send your comments and opinions to what i’ve said.

    Dom

    P.s I like the comenting

  82. What about Kreatcher as well…he has been knowen for taking objects and hiding them. It has been said that Bellatrix is his favorite of the remaining family members. Even if the locket cannot come out of the house for whatever reason (spells and enchantments) Bellatrix may have asked kretcher to hide the locket. And if there is no spells or enchantments holding the locket to the house, could kretcher have brought it to BL? He has left the house before…

  83. Don: Your thoughts on Narcissa or Belatrix possibly being able to enter Grimauld place presents an interesting potential turn of events, though not one that I believe will happen unless they are aided by someone like Kreacher. (I believe we all remember to whom his loyalties belong.)

    Having said all that, the locket may not be inside the house anymore. We haven’t heard if Sirius was successful in getting rid of eveything that he wanted removed, so the locket could have been thrown out somehow, claimed by some trash digger etc… There also remains the fact that Mundugus was smuggling things out of the house and could have pawned the locket. That seems the most likely scenario to me, but obviously it isn’t exclusive.

  84. Also, Mundungas has been stealing stuff from Grimmauld place. He could have flogged it off to anyone or anywhere. I think it may show up in the posession of Abertforth Dumbledore.

    Matt

  85. You know that is a good point about dung smuggling the locket from the house i ought to look into that. Anyway crystal, i thought kretcher was in the command of Harry so i doubt kretcher can leave the house again unles Harry tells him to sling his hook but fair point there. And also Ben i think your right. I doubt that belatrix or Narcissa know about the horcruxes, now i think about it. And korg that is a possibility actually, because if dung found it i reckon he would have thought hmm… Heavy big golden locket with slytherin crest on it got to be a big seller, so he might have gone and sold it to the WRONG people.

    Thanks for your opinions

    Dom

  86. About the horcruxes, Harry can’t be a horcrux because in his prohphecy it says that only one person can live in the final battle so that means that their are only 6 horcruxes and Harry is going to win the final battle. Also, maybe it will use the little known about SECTUMSEMPRA spell to destroy Lord Voldemort because he doesn’t know about the spell unless Snape told him.

    Avid Reader of Harry Potter,

    Joshua

  87. Excellent discussion, folks. I get these comments in my inbox and usually don’t get a chance to respond till a few have built up, and you all have filled in my responses before I could even get here!

    Joshua, see comments #83 and #84 above for your particular point.

    I agree – in some way or another, we’ll see sectumsempra in Book 7. The guys at Muggle Matters have created some interesting horcrux theories related to the spell, though I can’t find them right now – hey Pauli and Merlin, get a search function, will ya! :).

    Allow me to encourage new readers to please read the entire thread of comments before posting. I know it’s a long thread, but it’ll get longer if we don’t avoid repeating the same arguments over and over again. Thanks!

  88. Sorry to bring up Kretcher again but I am reading OotP and when Dobby comes to tell HP that Umbridge is coming to the room of requirment he is under orders not to tell anyone. He comes and tells Harry and than takes and order from Harry to lie if anyone askes if it was Dobby who told them and to not hurt himself. This shows that house elves (especially ones like Dobby and Kretcher who seem a bit more independedent) can take orders from someone else, they just will probably punish themselves afterwards.

  89. Crystal, very good observation. I’m working on some thoughts about the house-elves, and hopefully I’ll get a few posts up on them soon. I do think inquiring into the house-elves is an important issue, so no need to apologize for bringing Kreacher up again.

    Here’s my thought on your observation. The house-elves working for Dumbledore at Hogwarts have a different, and I’d argue more “free” status under Dumbledore’s charge, even if many of them, due to psychological slavery, are not prepared to accept it. Dobby, in particular, would experience more freedom even than the others, since he has recognized within himself a desire for freedom which Dumbledore honors.

    Hence, Dobby indeed is able to obey pretty much anyone he wants, though working for wages now, of course, Dumbledore could fire him if he did something wrong :)

    I don’t think this is true yet of all house-elves. Obviously Kreacher must obey Harry, as it is the test for whether or not Harry owns 12 Grimmauld place. Nonetheless, while Kreacher isn’t required to obey anyone else, he certainly can disobey Harry (and subsequently punish himself).

    This is all an unnecessarily long way of saying that Kreacher may indeed find his way into the horcrux plot, especially if the Mundungus deal was set up by Rowling to send us looking in the wrong direction.

  90. Hi again

    I wonder wether kreacher can leave the house again. Or maybe he can disaparate ( i dont know the term foe when house elves disapparate) like dobby did from the Malfoys or maybe he can interact with Bellatrix and or Narcissa (i doubt it though)via floo network although actually i think its still being watched by the ministry. im not certain but i think harry told krecher to go work in the Hogwarts kitchens ( i cant remember because my dog ripped my half blood prince copy to pieces). Who knows maybe krecher is still in contact with the two sisters.

    send your opinions

    thanks, Dom

  91. Dom, Harry did send Kreacher to go work in the kitchens at Hogwarts. Though Kreacher was very reluctant, he did obey Harry, which means he does belong to Harry. That is, unless Bellatrix told him to obey Harry until instructed further, so as to trick everyone. If you remember, there was a question as to whether Sirius’ wish that Harry inherit Grimmauld Place would even be honored because of some possible spells and enchantments that may have been put on the place to prevent it from getting into the hands of a ‘mudblood’ like Harry. Kreacher taking Harry’s orders was the only test DD administered to verify whether Sirius’ wishes had been honored.

    If Kreacher and Grimmauld Place did not belong to Harry then they would have gone to Bellatrix, who was the next closest living ‘pureblood’ relative. Further more, though it would be difficult for Bellatrix to communicate with Kreacher at Hogwarts, and/or give orders to him, it would still be possible whether she truely owns him or not. (Though I have no idea as to HOW they would do this.)

    As I reviewed Sirius and Harry’s conversation about the Black family tapistry, something popped out at me that supports your idea on this that I had forgotton. Though Sirius names several people, including himself, that have been been disowned by the family, he mentions that Tonks is related to him and that her name was blotted out because she wasn’t a pureblood. Sirius says “I see Tonks isn’t on here. Maybe that’s why Kreacher won’t take orders from her-he’s supposed to do whatever anyone in the family asks him….” So by this we see that Kreacher would still have to do what anyone else in the family asks him, unless they aren’t purebloods possibly. (You see, Sirius was disowned and Kreacher still obeyed him, so there has to be something else involved in his not taking orders from Tonks. Sirius believes that it was because she is a ‘mudblood’, though he isn’t positive.)

    This is why I wonder if Bellatrix made Kreacher obey Harry and fool DD and the order. You see, if he is that against mudbloods then he probably wouldn’t take orders from Harry either, whether Harry owns him or not. So, either Sirius’ guess was wrong about why Kreacher wouldn’t take orders from Tonks, or Bellatrix and Kreacher scammed everyone.

  92. Deborah,
    You wrote that Kreacher wouldn’t take an order from a mudblood like Harry. I’m not sure that is a correct description. Neither parent is a muggle.

    Matt

  93. hi

    Just for corrections sake harry’s a half blood because his mother came from a muggle family. I think kretcher can obay sirius because dispite he was dissowned he is still a blood realative and still is part of the family. Now kretcher is a very misterious and missunderstood from my Point of view Maybe this has something has to do with the family tapestary i was a passage just now i occured to me Andromeda Tonks’s mother was blasted off the tapestary so maybe this is like the rights to the house and the elf so possibly Tonks’s rights to kretcher have been expired but hang on Sirius was wiped from the tapestary aswell Darn im so con fused. But it still puzzles me as to why harry can order kretcher about in the Sixth book If he’s not partof the the family. But most importantly i think we should examin some of kretcher mumblings which might give us a clue to what he’s been doing. Or one last possibility is that kretcher is being controlled by the imperius curse although i think it is the least likely of the suggestions ive made.

    sorry about any spelling errors.

    thanks for reading Dom

  94. I thought the term “mudblood” meant that one’s parents weren’t both “purebloods”. Either way, whether “mudblood”, “halfblood”, “mixed blood” or “3/4 blood”, Harry should be considered similar to Tonks in Kreachers eyes because she has similar purity of blood in her veins as he does. She had one “pureblood” parent: Andromeda, her mother, and a “muggle-born” parent: her father (which I interpret to mean that though his parents were muggles, he himself was not).

    Obviously JKR’s usage of the term “Muggle-born” on pg. 113 of OotP in reference to Ted Tonks isn’t cut and dry. It could mean he was born a muggle himself, but why not just say “muggle”? My hypothesis is that it just meant he had muggle parents, though he himself was a wizard, much like Hermione and Lilly Evans became witches despite their muggle births.

    It was the mixed marriage between Nymphodora’s mother, and her “muggle-born” father that got Andromeda kicked out of the Black family and her name removed from the tapestry. Sirius therefore speculates that Tonks was also removed, due of her mixed blood, and that that may be the reason why Kreacher doesn’t ever take orders from her. If I am correct on this interpretation of “muggle-born”, then Harry would meet the same qualifications as Tonks did for Kreacher to not listen to him: mixed blood (one “pureblood” parent and one “muggle-born” parent).

    So again, as I stated before, but this time using “mixed blood” in place of “mudblood”: “You see, Sirius was disowned and Kreacher still obeyed him, so there has to be something else involved in his not taking orders from Tonks. Sirius believes that it was because she [had mixed blood], though he isn’t positive. This is why I wonder if Bellatrix made Kreacher obey Harry and fool DD and the order. You see, if he is that against [mixed bloods] then he probably wouldn’t take orders from Harry either, whether Harry owns him or not. So, either Sirius’ guess was wrong about why Kreacher wouldn’t take orders from Tonks, or Bellatrix and Kreacher scammed everyone.”

  95. Also, as a side note, even if Kreacher’s reasons for not obeying Tonks are different than what Sirius believes, and/or he has to listen to eveything Harry says anyways, Bellatrix and any other Black family member can order him around if they are able to get access to him somehow. This would include the Malfoys and possibly even the Weaselys, depending on how far removed they need to be to break the ties of obedience. Nymphadora is the daughter of one of Sirius’ cousins, as is Draco Malfoy. So, we shall see how this will all play out in things, as I’m sure Kreacher has a greater roll to play yet.

    Incidentally, do you think since Sirius was able to will Kreacher to Harry that maybe all ties to the black family are now cut for him? I’m doubtful, but I suppose it is possible.

  96. Well possibly, perhaps the will sirius wrote was not just written info but a binding magical contract so sought of like you said but wether dumbledore knew about it i dont know. Or wether Dumby ( soz but it takes ages to type)severed the links between kretcher and bella i dont know if you can do that though, or he might not have even known about the link.

    i was going to wright more.
    Dom

  97. this is my summary=
    horcruxes
    1.Riddles diary = is destroyed
    2.Morfins ring = is destroyed
    3.slytherins locket = is destroyed
    4.hufflepuffs cup
    5.unknown
    6.nagini
    7.voldemort

    R.A.B is a mystery but the person who wrote the letter intending it to be for voldemort called him the dark lord and only his followers call him by that.

  98. Slytherin’s locket is not destroyed — Sirius’s brother Regulus Arcturus Black took it and it was at Grimmaud Place when everyone was trying to clean up (from Order of the Phoenix… the locket they couldn’t open). To make things simpler, I’m going to guess it’s still at Grimmaud Place, but it’s possible it’s one of the things that Mundungus Fletcher fenced.

    I’m going to guess that Regulus was killed before he was able to destroy the locket horcrux (I think Sirius said it didn’t take long before his bro was killed after leaving the Death Eaters), which is why it’s at Grimmaud Place. For all we know, Regulus had been killed at Grimmaud Place himself.

  99. Dumbledore’s theory of Nagini being a horcrux doesn’t really hold up, since according to his theory, this horcrux wouldn’t have been made until after two of them (Riddle’s own body and the diary) have been destroyed. Remember how enamoured Voldie was of the idea of 7 horcruxes. If he did make Nagini a horcrux after the events in the books were already started, then he also would have needed to make 1 or 2 more to get to, or get back to, his lucky number seven. Seems more likely this a clue designed to point us toward Harry–except for the fact that the idea of Dumbledore engaging in faulty reasoning is hard to believe.

  100. I feel that DD knew that Harry was a horcrux by the end of Order of the Pheonix, if not before, but that he didn’t feel that he should tell Harry just yet. He probably wanted him to grow up a little, find out a few more things first, and then figure it out for himself. (As Harry does tend to rush to the aid of others, finding out that he is a horcrux might cause him to take drastic measures that DD hopes there is a way around.) I think both Rowling, via DD, and DD via the story, tossed in the Nagini speculations as both a red herring and as a clue that LV didn’t only use inanimate objects as horcruxes for exactly those reasons that you stated Dawn.

  101. Consider the locket harry found at number twelve, grimmauld place. The one no one could open that had belonged to Regulus Black (suspected R.A.B.). We have that horcrux already.

  102. Technically we don’t have “that horcrux already” because Mundungus Flecher could have pilfered it. Additionally, that locket was silver and Slytherin’s locket was gold. If it is the correct locket, then it was disguised or alterred. If it isn’t the correct locket, then something more complex is at work. Just a though.

  103. Well, the silver/gold aspect could just be an editorial screw-up (like the order Harry’s parents appeared in the 1st ed of GoF).

    But, as you say, it could be disguised…I’m wondering if LV knows that that particular horcrux is not where it was meant to be. RAB seems to have expected LV to read his note, and that LV would know who he is, and so if he couldn’t figure out how to destroy the horcrux, he probably knew he had to disguise it somehow, though changing it from gold to silver in appearance is pretty low-key. I would think LV would still recognize it.

  104. Sorry, but when does DD figure out that LV uses horcruxes? Is it after book 2, or sometime between book 5 and 6? I’m not sure if anybody says, is there anything in the books that might indicate when he figured out that LV was using horcruxes, as in a specific time preiod?

  105. This comment was posted by tracydaisy in another thread, and I think it fits best in this discussion.

    Anyone have any guesses to what the horcruxes are and where they can be found.
    Here’s mine:

    possible Horcruxes
    1-Harry Potters scar –death created – unintentional suicide
    2-Tom Riddle diary – death created ?
    3-??
    4-Ancient Chair in the Riddle house –death created ? Regulus??
    5-Locket – Mother’s – death created ?
    6-Slithern ring – death created ?
    7-A small golden cup with two finely wrought handles & engraved with a badger– Helga Hufflepuff’s – death created ? Helga
    8-?? – Nagini- death created ? Frank the caretaker of the Riddle house

    NOTE- I don’t think that Nagini is a horcrux, but I do think that there are possible 7 horcruxes + the soul in LV body. I like the idea that LV screwed up, and made to many Horcruxes. Just my thought.

    Order of creation of horcruxes
    1. Tom Riddle’s diary
    2. Slitherin ring
    3. locket
    4. Helga’s cup
    5. Ancient Chair in Riddle house
    6. ??
    7. Harry Potter’s scar – by accident.

    Harry’s scar
    –connected with
    ——Prophecy
    ——Person – Harry, the one who could vanquish Voldemort
    —MISTAKE made by Voldemort

    Diary -
    –connected with
    ——place – Hogwarts
    ——person – himself as Slytherin heir
    –Found at Hogwarts – Chamber of Secrets
    –Why? He liked Hogwarts & the Chamber connects him with the prophecy of Slithern
    –DESTROYED BY Harry

    Ancient Chair
    –connected with
    ——Place – Riddle house, because this is where he murdered 3 important people.
    ——Person – ??
    ——Last known placement – the Riddle house
    –Why? I don’t know..
    –my GUESS ???

    Locket
    –connected with
    ——place orphanage
    ——person – Slytherin / his mother
    —stolen from
    ——Hepzibah Smith
    –found in
    ——cave
    ———why? Because this is where he tortured other orphans for his orphanage—was moved by RAB
    –Where is it now
    —-Black house
    —-With Mundungus Fletcher, who stole it.
    —-With Kreacher or hidden by kreacher
    —-MISSING

    Slithern ring
    –Connected with
    ——Place his grandfathers house
    ——Person Slytherin / his grandfather
    –Found in
    ——-Grandfather’s house
    ———Why? His grandfather
    –DESTROYED BY Dumbledore

    Snake
    –Made in an emergency
    –Where is it?
    —–With Voldemort
    –Dumbledores guess

    Horcrux places & possible places
    –Orphanage
    –Cave
    –Hogwarts
    –Chamber of secrets
    –Gaunt house – Grandfather
    –Riddle house- Dad’s
    –Borgin and Burkes – first job
    –Room of Requirement

    Important people for Tom Riddle
    –Mother Merope Gaunt
    –Father Tom Riddle
    –Grandfather Morvolo Gaunt
    –Uncle Morfin Gaunt
    –Dumbledore
    –4 hogwarts founders
    –Harry Potter – prophesied to vanquish the dark lord

    Voldemort’s victims
    - —-remember he has to kill to make a horcrux, victims can give us clues to horcruxes and locations of them.
    -Father: Tom Riddle sr. – why – revenge
    -Grandfather : Riddle – why – revenge
    -Grandmother: Riddle – why – revenge
    -Hepzibah Smith – why – greed
    -Dorcus Meadows killed by Voldemort personally
    -Regulas Black – why – revenge, betrayal 1979
    -James Potter- why – Oct. 31 1981
    -Lilly Potter – why – didn’t want to kill her, but she was in the way. Seems odd Voldermort would care – Oct. 31, 1981
    -Himself – why – mistake – meant to kill Harry
    -Old muggle Frank B., caretaker of the Riddle house – why wrong place at wrong time
    -Susan Bones grandparents

    Sorry it’s so length..

    comments welcome.

    What are your guess to horcruxes and where they are and what is relevent info to finding them?

  106. Daryl,

    I believe DD becomes aware of horcruxes at the end of CoS, because of the diary, but it may be very possible he always wondered, because LV did not die that night in Godric’s hollow, when the AK curse rebounded. In SS we find out LV is still alive, so he wasn’t killed, the question DD must of asked himself is how LV did not die. Also doesn’t Hagrid say something to Harry like I don’t know if there was enough human left in him [LV] to die. What could that mean, I know Hagrid isn’t a learned man, but he must have gotten this idea from somewhere, maybe DD. If it did come from DD then would that be refering to the making of horcruxes?

  107. Deborah and Meek,

    I just read that you too wrote about the locket found at 12 Grimald place being silver. Where is it that you got that idea? I’ve looked it up, and all it says is this: “also a heavy locket that none of them could open” pg 116 in OotP. Check it out for yourselves.

    I think it is the same locket as the horcrux locket, I found it interesting that no one could open it; probably because LV soul is consealed in it.

  108. A note on R.A.B.

    Amelia Bones was murdered by the LV himself in the span between book 5 and book 6. Does anyone find that weird? I mean, yes, it is expected that some people in the ministry are will be killed in war… and yes, Amelia Bones was high up in the pecking order, as head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, but it appears that she was targeted. She was killed in her locked house, by LV, not in some kind of a battle. Why not kill the head of the Auror Office or any number of other people? Could just be coincidence, but it could be more too it.

    Like the fact that her name is Ameila Susan Bones and that she’s named her daughter Susan Bones (as in taking her middle name, as is a tradition in many families) — which could indicate that Amelia’s Mother (who was incidently murdered by death eaters) was named R____ Amelia Bones. R.A.B. Perhaps Amelia had a horcrux? Or knew information LV needed? And can’t you just see JK getting a kick out of making her mystery hero a woman? With all of her equality themes? I realize that just because she was murdered doesn’t mean that her mother was R.A.B., but I think it makes logical sense.

    It seems more interesting to me than Regulus anyway, who wouldn’t surprise anyone. But either way, I think Regulus probably has an interesting back story and i hope we get more on him in book 7. unless of course, he’s nothing more than what sirius described him as.

    Think its possible?

  109. Tracydaisy: You are right about the locket, sorry, my mistake. I was remembering the silver box that bit Sirius and then the silver goblet with the Black family crest on it that Mundungus Fletcher dropped outside the Hog’s Head pub. I just remembered it saying that Harry saw something small and silver, but had forgotton the rest. Thanks for catching that. To think that I had reviewed it too! :O I guess I didn’t do a good enough job that time.

    Maggie: As for your hypothesis about a relative of Amelia Bones being the elusive R.A.B., you have an exellent point. It could work, though we will have to wait to see for sure. That would make make Regulus and the locket at Grimmauld Place a red herring, though I would think that any forshadowing done would be stronger than it now is, but that’s just me. Having said that, it doesn’t mean that the Bones’ family didn’t have another artifact in their presence that could have had significance to LV (like a Ravenclaw relic perhaps), or the odd chance that Amelia knew the where abouts one of LV’s already made horcruxes which could have been confiscated during the raid and arrest of one of his Death Eaters. We know that Lucius had the diary in his posession, someone kept LV’s wand safe until he was able to use it again, so maybe someone else had additional memorabelia. Just another thought.

  110. Maggie,
    WoW, that is very interesting. A possible new R.A.B. Great job. This is why I love this site.

    I looked up on the lexicon website and found that Edgar Bones and his wife and children were also killed by death eaters around the same time that Susan’s Grandparents were killed. Edgar was a memeber of the order of the phoenix, and a great wizard. He is also the uncle of Susan Bones. It is interesting that so many Bones are targeted.

    Lexicon says that Amelia Susan Bones is the Aunt of Susan Bones, not her mother.
    What is Susan’s father’s name does any one know? He would be a Bones..

    Deborah,
    you’re welcome and please correct me when I blunder, as I often do.

    I’ve got a question…?
    Do you remember Bellatrix saying that LV trusted her with his most precious. I think it may be in HBP spinners end. What would be most precious to LV, but a horcrux. Do you guys think she has a horcrux.. or was it possibly the diary and when she went to prison she gave it to her sister, Narcissa Malfoy..? Just wondering..

  111. Lexicon has all the answers! :) Thanks for finding that Ameila was her aunt, not mother. I swear, keeping track of it all!?!

    Good question on the “most precious”. That might be an indication that she has info on horcruxes or perhaps an actual horcrux in her possession. Hm. But what do we know about her. Perhaps she is the one who put the locket (assuming its a horcrux) in Number 12? Sirius said his father had every protection known to wizard kind on the place. Maybe? I can’t think what else would be “precious” to LV… Can you imagine Harry realizing he needs Bella to figure this thing out?!

    Here’s a question for you guys, semi related to Bella: why do you think the death eaters were so convinced that the Longbottoms knew where LV had gone after he’d died? Sure they’re cruel and probably wouldn’t mind torturing people, but they were looking for information and they seemed to think the Longbottoms might have it. But why?

  112. Maggie,

    Good Question. I don’t know, why the deatheaters thought the Longbottoms knew where LV was.

    The Longbottoms ranked up there with the Potters, Lilly and James, having defied LV three times. Where they looking for LV, could they have been looking for horcruxes? Geh, I just don’t know. It’s definitely something worth thinking about. Keep it coming Maggie.

    …hmmm,
    The Longbottoms were Aurors, maybe that had something to do with why they might have known where to find LV.

  113. Maggie,

    About the possible R.A.B theory. R.A.Bones. That would mean that this Bones would have had to be a former follower of LV. Did you every hear anything about a Bones being a Deatheater?

  114. Oooh, good point. I think its pretty well accepted that calling LV “the dark lord” makes them at a (one time) death eater or at very least a supporter. I haven’t read anything at all about the Bones family being connected to that. Might bust that up.

    Yeah, I can see how being Aurors might make the death eaters come after the Longbottoms. Maybe they were assigned specifically to destroying LV or something. I don’t know. I could be nothing, it just seemed odd to me.

  115. If I recall correctly (and I may not), “Bones” doesn’t fit the translational difficulties with the changing initials.

    Professor Mum has a great theory on the whole Bellatrix/most precious possessions thing, and it fits great with a Regulus as RAB point of view. Bellatrix and Regulus are both “Blacks” (cousins, is it? I’m having a mental block). If Bella was entrusted with placing the locket horcrux in the cave, perhaps, Regulus just might’ve stolen it, or even made the switch before Bella put it in the cave.

    See the whole essay here.

  116. Travis,

    Thanks, more theories to think on. This one of Prof. Mum is pretty interesting, and deeply thought out.

    I got a question for you, why do you think that when Harry cast the spell “Accio horcrux” only one body responded?

  117. Travis

    I have a thought for you..
    this is about prof. mum theory.
    LV obtained that locket in the late 40′s early 50′s, I think. 29 years later he decides to hide it, that sounds strange. It seems that the locket would have been made into horcrux number 3 or 4, and if so he would have hidden it soon after he turned it into a horcrux, remember he didn’t keep the ring very long after he made it into a horcrux. What do you think..?

  118. tracydaisy, I was struck by the lone inferius responding as well. It didn’t make sense to me that only one jumped. I almost thought, “That’s the horcrux” or “the horcrux is tied to that inferius.” But that might be digging too deeply, and I doubt we’ll have a revisit to the cave in Book 7.

    Does seem odd that the locket was hidden so late, doesn’t it? That might make the theory problematic. At the same time, LV might not have believed anyone knew about the horcruxes and didn’t feel the need to hide them so carefully and with so much protection, and then he got word that someone knew what was going on. I’ll have to give that theory a thorough read; I only skimmed it a bit the first time. So many essays to read!

  119. Travis,

    I was rereading in GoF where LV returned to his body, he mentions right infront of Pedigrew, about his muggle father being of use. Pedigrew doesn’t seem like a good person to tell a secret in front of.

    I was thinking about the Prof. MuM theory, and what might have happened in 1979. Well I looked up on Lexicon that the LV found out about the prophecy in late 1979 or 1980. Let’s say it happened in 1979, the infamous year. What do you think LV is going to do after he hears someone mignt have the power to vanquish him? …. If I were him I’ld recheck my protection, my horcruxes, be sure they are safe. Maybe it is then that LV realizes that R.A.B. has taken one, and immediately seeks him out to kill him.
    Now I’m going to get a little crazy, but what if LV decided to use Regulus as the replacement horcrux, and places his body in the black lake [of course black lake, not because of it's color, but because Regulus Black is in it] So when Harry cries out “Accio Horcrux” the only horcrux in the cave responds and Harry seeing it stops focusing on wanting the horcrux and it fails back into the lake.

    What are your thoughts?

  120. Whoa. You guys rock my world. Seriously, thank goodness there are boards out there discussing this kind of stuff, instead of who is going to date who!!

  121. After reading Professor Mum’s essay, I came up with a crazy idea that’s related. Both Regulus and his father died in the same year. Right? As was pointed out, this is very, very suspicious. I don’t have the time to elabortate on it, but could it be at all possible that Regulus and his father pulled a Barty Crouch Jr./Mrs. Crouch switch? More on that later

  122. hello,
    i don’t think harry is a horcrux. it just seems like the thing everyone would expect but would not be correct. i also think that if harry would be a horcrux that there would be much more LV in him. you could say his scar is a horcrux but i don’t see how his scar can be. if LV intended to make harry a horcrux he wouldn’t first scar him and then make that scar a horcrux. i don’t believe you can accidentely make something a horcrux because horcruxes are very advanced magic.

    I wondered: say that nagini is a horcrux and that she is made one by the dead of frank, if i remember well then pettigrew was in the chamber with LV when frank was killed and i seems unlikely that LV would let pettigrew know about his horcruxes. So maby he dindn’t make any new horcruxes during his part life and as he was planning to murder harry during GoF he was still saving harry’s death for his last horcrux. So mamby thats wy other dead eaters have to leave harry for LV.

    I’m from belgium so excuse me for my errors

  123. Hello everyone
    i have been reading through everyones comments and thoughts and i must say i saw some very interesting points. How ever, like everyone else i am puzzled to who R.A.B might be. Some speculate that is it Sirius’s brother Regulus Black which seems the best bet so far. I do not know who it is eithe rbut a few thought have occurd to me after re-reading HBP. Dumbledore knew and access to alot of valuable info that i am sure Regulus didnt have. How would Regulus even know about the cave that Voldrmort took other children in his orphanage to frighten. From what i have gatherd form the books, DD was the only wizard that talked to Voldermort and the LAdy at the orphanage at the time. Plus i thought LV didnt tell his death eaters about his Horcruxes and the DD himself satets that LV is a exceptional at Occlumency. Even in the letter Harry got form the fake Horcruxe, RAB said “..it was I who discovered your secret” clearly stating that VERY few knew about his horcruxes. Its all just a thought though but for some reason i have my doubts about Regulus.

  124. so here’s the thing..
    harry is planning to start his quest for the horcruxes at godrics hollow.
    godric
    godric gryffindor.
    if any relic of gryffindor was ever found wouldnt it be there?
    mabey after lord v came back to power he took one of his horcruxes to godrics hollow..
    its an important place because thats were his expirament in immortalaty prooved a success.

  125. Hi Guys, Love the site.

    I think the Gruffindor/Ravenclaw horcrux is in the room for requirement. Hbp states that there are generations upon generations og Hogwarts history stored in the romm where Harry finally hides the book. JKR never really lets us know what sort of artifact Ravenclaw could have left behind, but the books provides many obeject.

    1. Old rusty swords (possible other Gryf swords)
    2. Tiara which harry places on top of a wig to make he spot where the book is hidden stand out
    3. Blood Stained Axe – the blood signifies death. Death is needed to create a Horcrux.

    Just fishing here, but when LV came back to Hogwarts there was a knock on the door right. Just as he leaves the there is also no mention of him going straight out of the castle.

    So, isnt the ROR on the way to dumby’s office as well, remember Harry bumping into Prof Trewlawny aftr Mlafoy chucked her out, on his way to get the Horcrux. Couldnt LV placed the artifact there either coming or going?

    I absolutely beleive RAB is Regulus and the lockett is in Grimmuald Place.

    Hehehehe, I hope this doesnt play with your minds to much but I have alot more theories if your interested & would loveto hear your thoughts on the above.

  126. Interesting!

    The room of requirement would be an excellent hiding place for a horcrux- and not just Voldemort’s.

    There may be many horcruxes in existance. But not all horcruxes are Voldemorts. Other people in Hogwarts in the past may have made horcruxes and stashed them in the Room. The axe you mention, for instance, bloodstained- definately an instrument for murder is possibly a horcrux but unlikely to be Voldemort’s. I think Voldemort likes to kill by magic rather than in the tried and true Cludo method. Voldemort, in the Transfiguration classroom, with the axe…

    Matthew

  127. hey everyone,
    some nice theories, but i really dont think that there are horcruxes out there belonging to other wizards. It was hard enough for LV to find out how to make a horcrux, let alone anyone else. On the other hand, in HBP when DD and Harry were in the cave getting the locket, DD told Harry that LV would hid ehis Horcruxes in a secret place but yet it still has ot be retrievable by LV him-self in case he needs it later. It would be kind of hard for LV to one day have to break into Hogwarts and into the Room of Req. without being noticied, esecially with DD there. Its still a good theory and i am not throwing it out but yeh jus my thoughts. Another reason why i think LV wouldnt hide his horcrux in the Room of Req. is because it can be accidentaly discovered by anyone. It seems a bit to risky to me.

  128. Fawks- Why couldn’t there be other horcruxes out there besides Voldemorts? Obviously they had been made previously because Voldemort didn’t pioneer the knowledge. He was asking about Slughorn about them.
    They aren’t vital to the story in anyway, but it is possible, even likely. But without a loyal band of followers the horcrux maker couldn’t return to any physical form.

    Matt

  129. your absolutely right Matt, there could be other horcruxes out there. But remember, LV is the most powerfull dark wizard known to the wizarding world and creating a horcrux requires very dark and skilled magic. They seem to suit each other well. Also, i dont think they had to be created be4 in order to be created again. Its like the sectumsempra spell Harry used on Draco in book 6. It said for enemies only, it was a dark spell conjured by Snape, but as far as it is concerend, Harry was the only person we know to use it. I mean, Snapes enemies at Hogwarts was the marauders:(James,Sirius,Lupin,Pettigrew)and he could have used it on any of them to get revenge but as far as we know didnt because of the damage it did. So liek the sectumsempra spell,the Horcruxes magic was around but i dont think any wizard was dark/evil enough to try and create one be4 LV……Just a few thoughts.

  130. Another thought on additional horcruxes:

    Tom Riddle had to learn how to make them. We’ve learned that Dumbledore didn’t want them discussed at hogwarts and that the trio couldn’t find anything on them in the Hogwarts library. So where does a young Tom Riddle, with no wizarding family and few friends, go to find out about this top secret dark magic? My guess would be to someone who has been known to make them in the past. Another dark wizard. I think that Borgin/Burke might be able to serve this mentor roll, but even more likely I think that the wizard that DD defeated in 1945 (i forget his name, sorry) would be a good option. It would explain why DD is so completely against the teaching of horcruxes. Sure, they’re dark magic, but personal experience strengthens our views.

    So yes, I believe there are other horcruxes (but as far as DD knows, no one has ever made more than one besides LV). And yes, i think we’ll learn more about them in book 7.

  131. I like this discussion.
    I too believe that Voldemort learned horcrixes from Grindlewald. I think Dumbledore has destroyed horcruxes in past that had been less well protected than how Voldemort protected his. I think it’s a lesson learned for Voldemort that Grindlewald was defeated by Dumbledore so completely. Why is Dumbledore the only one he ever feared? I reckon it’s because he witnessed Dumbledore defeat of Grindlewald.

    Fawks – You’re right that we only know about Harry using Snape’s sectum sempra curse. But I suspect that as a Death Eater Snape has killed and wounded with this curse. We know from Sirius that Snape was talented with dark magic from before entering Hogwarts. His hooem life didn’t seem like a dream either. Who knows what he had to contend with in the Christmas and end of school breaks…

    Matt

  132. I think the Room of Requirement is a PERFECT place for a Horcrux. No one knows exactly how horcruxes work, but really, the only reason that LV would need to access it would be to protect it if he suspected that someone knew of its existence and was attempting to destroy it. But in the RoR, it is VERY well protected…not only by all the enchantments in Hogwarts, but in the RoR as well. The room is a different thing to different people and conforms to their need at that moment. And since Horcruxes are seemingly ordinary, no one would likely suspect such a dark object to be there. I think that JKR showed us that SIGNIFICANT items are in there by the vanishing cabinets. It gets us thinking…what else is in there?!? And I think that Harry will think the same thing in his hunt for the remaining horcruxes.

  133. hello again everyone,
    i was just wondering about something. We all learned that Sybill Trelawny gave the prophecy to DD about Harry and LV. But does anyone remember the other prophecy she gave. The one TO Harry? In POA, after Hermione knocked the crystal ball off the table and stormed out of Divinations, the ball also rolled out the door with her. After class when Harry and Ron were walking down the stairs from the class room, Harry noticed the ball and decided to take it back to Trelawny. When he went back and saw her, she sort of fell into a trance and Told Harry a Propechy about what lies ahead. Then when she snappped out of it, She was surprised to see Harry, not knowing/remembering he was even in the room.

    If you guys look back in POA youll find it. I cant rememebr the exact chapter or pg# though.

    I just think its weird that Harry was told a Propechy and didnt even know it, or even mention it to anyone. There is more about Trelawny than we think.

  134. Hey guys, its me again

    I another thought just came to me. We know that in order to create a horcrux, a witch/wizard 1st has to commit murder. We know that LV started killing after he left Hogwarts. Lets say he did hide horcruxes in tha RoR. How did he get them in the RoR no longer being a student and now a known evil wizard by DD. DD knew what LV was gathering Death Eaters to support him. The last time we know of LV in Hogwarts was when he was denied the post of Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher by DD.

    The diary in COS got in by accident through Ginny Weasly, planted by Lucious Malfoy. But as we remember in book 6, DD tells Harry that if Lucious actually knew that the diary contained a fragment of the Dark Lord’s soul, then he(lucious) probably would have treated it with alot more care. So i would think it not to bright for LV to give a horcrux to his followers to hide for him, even if it is in the RoR.

  135. Just an idea:
    The vanishing cabinets. We don’t know for sure then they entered Hogwarts (we know that one was moved when it was broken to the ROR, but other than that…) Now I’m not saying that JK will use these again, but I think there is every reason she could. LV would have opportunity to know about them if the match was in Borgin & Burkes and he certainly would have been as clever as Malfoy in seeing their usefullness. Again, not saying that I think this is going to key in book 7, but if JK decides to make Hogwarts the main setting for the book (and I think she might) it might be useful to her to be able to build back story.

    However, the idea of LV sneaking around the halls of hogwarts undetected by DD? I don’t like it, doubt JK would either.

    Just some thoughts.

  136. hey everyone,

    I was just wondering about somethign again. In chapter 2 of HBP, Snape tells Narcissa that DD seriously injured himself while fighting LV at the ministry in the end of book 5. But really we know that DD injured his hand while destroying the RING Horcrux. I am pretty sure DD had to tell Snape what happend to his hand in order for Snape to know what Remedy to use to try and fix it. Did DD tell Snape that he was destroying a Horcrux? I was guessinng maybe DD did not tell Snape because he knew LV could use Legilimency on Snape and then find out that DD is after the Horcruxes. But if DD did tell Snape, then was Snape leading Narcissa and Bellatrix to believe a lie that he knew they would pass on to LV, especially Bellatrix. If that is true, then that would mean Snape is covering up for DD and in a way supporting his quest for destroying the remainign Horcruxes. Which leads us back to which damn side Snape is on.

    Here is another though of mine that I found to be interesting. After the fight in Hogwarts and DD death, when Harry was telling everyone int he hospital wing how Snape killed DD, McGonagal said that DD always trusted Snape. That DD has a special reason for trusting Snape that he didnt tell anyone else. Harry said that he knew and told them abotu the memory he saw in the pensieve about how Snape told DD how sorry he was about revealing the Potters hideout to LV, therefor resulting int heir deaths. But what if that wasnt the reason DD trusts Sanpe. What if DD made also made Snape take an Unbreakeable Vow to help the Order of the Phoniex and to act as a double agent for DD. If Snape was to break that vow then he would die. Maybe that was what reassured DD that Snape was on his side.

    So it could be that DD told Snape he would HAVE to kill him in order to kepp the vow that he had mad with Narcissa.

    Also another fishy thign i found, when Harry was chasign after Snape and Malfoy be4 they apparated, Snape didnt allow any of the otehr death eaters to cast a spell at Harry saying that LV wants Harry to him self. This makes no sense because in book 5 at the ministry, Lucious gave orders to get the Prophecy back and then they coudl kill Harry. Lucious said that LV was only concerend about the prophecy not Harry. So why would LV, after plannign to kill DD still want with Harry??? DD is dead, why not get rid of Potter then and there and end all of this??????

    So now , I am begginign to think that maybe Snape is infact on the goodside.

    Please everyone, add your thoughts on it, i am interested to hear what everyoen else thinks about my theories.

  137. Hey Fawks,
    Just reading again Snape’s memory in the pensive that Harry sees. The one when James turns Snape upside-down and everyone sees his undies.

    Snape definately used sectum sempra on James. It gashed his cheek open.

    Matt

  138. hello again,

    Hmmmmm, i remember that, i gotta go re-read it again. It makes sense though. But how come the rest of his body didnt gash open?? Or maybe it was a spell in the making?? Maybe he didn’t fully develop the spell at the time???

  139. I reckon that’s right.

    The memory was of their fifth year doing OWLs and the potions text book was their sixth year book. Maybe a whole year to sort it out.

    I think Rowling is amazing. I don’t think anything in her books are just chance. She REALLY has planned her stories ou the the Nth degree.

    Matt

  140. hello everyone,

    Just a thought here, i read on a few sites that when the Leaky Cauldron and Mugglenet interviewed JKR, one of the question was “What would Snape see from a Boggart adn What is Snapes Patronus.”

    She replied saying that she couldnt asnwer those questions because it would be giving away to much.

    So i thought, about the patronus, not so much the boggart.

    As we know, Patronuses are used to fight of dementers, and are “good magic” which is why the OoTP uses their patronus to send messages between members. DD told Harry that they use Patronuses because its is hard for Death eaters to intercept because they fear light(which symbolises good. So if Snape can recveive patronuses, like the one Tonks sent to Hogwarts after she found Harry stunned under the Cloak with his face all bloody, and assumingly make a patronus, that means he has to be on the goodside. Because there is no reason for a dark wizard to need a Patronus, because they are already evil and dark.

  141. It seems highly unprobable that Harry is a horcrux. I just finished re-reading books 4,5, and 6…We musnt forget that Harry is marked as the one who must finish off Voldemort…He was marked as his equal so if if it was ever that Harry was a horcrux and ended up sacrificing hinself, nobody would be able to kill Voldemort because that as I have said before, is Harry’s fate to kill him or to be killed…I just wanted to remind that to whomever it was in the earlier posts saying that Harry was possibly a horcrux.

    And to you Fawks, I think you have a well developed theory only to add my own theory to yours to make it an even more sensible thing to say Snape is DD’s man: when Snape was facing DD as he was about to leave the school and kill DD, it is possible that DD was not saying “Severus please” as in begging for his own life but he was saying please in begging him not to kill Harry…there were two broomsticks and both Snape and Malfoy saw these…Soooo…Snape realized Harry was somewhere close by and respecting DD’s wishes made every attempt to pretend he did not notice Harry until he appeared when he was chasing Snape and, even then Snape prevented the Death Eaters from killing Harry. BUT maybe just maybe, we are wrong…maybe Snape is all for himself??? huh? think about it…Snape’s hidden talent is revealed in HBP in the book…maybe Snape has a will to destroy the Dark Lord himself…I was kinda skeptical when introduced to it but its possible…Chao!

  142. I think Snape is good,but like i said in “is harry a horcrux?” i said it could go both ways.

    It seems JK has always tricked us with the “Snape Situation” remeber in the 1st book? with Quirel? and other countless times harry always thinks its Snape when it isnt, so maybe she is doing that again as a suprise.

    But then it also seems what if she realy is suprising us like once he is innocent 2ce he ‘s innocent 3times oooooooooooooo he’s not

  143. hey yall, fawks here again,

    yes the snape situation is indeed tricky.However, we have to remember that regardless of what happens, Harry will always hate Snape. Snape could defeat LV and Harry will still hate him. From what Harry knows and experienced, Snape is responsible for Harry lossing the people he loves the most. Harry blames Snape for:
    -the death of his parents because he told LV about the prophecy.
    -he blames Snape for the death of Sirius, thinkign that he tried to warn Snape in Umbridges office but all Snape did was walk away uncarringly
    -and finnally,Harry witnessed Snape killing DD.

    So as far as Harry is concerned, he could, or rather he refuses to accept Snape as a good wizard. Which would be very ironic if it is Snape who in the end helps Harry defeat LV. But I styll beleive Harry would continue to hate Snape even if that would be the case.
    So i think its more Harry than J.K thats misleading/tricking us. It all depends on who we believe, DD or HP. Which brings up another issue. As much as HP says he is DD mans through and through, his loyality seems to come in question when ever the Snape issue arises between Harry and DD. DD has told Harry and the others many times that he has his reasons for trusting Snape, and everytime Harry has has to be reminded.

    Just a few thoughts.

  144. Is this thread still …threading?
    I wanted to pick up on something Maggie said Oct. 26 about “where does a young Tom Riddle, with no widarding family and few friends, go to find out about this top secret dark magic?”
    This very thing struck me while reading HBP. How would young Tom Riddle even know that such a thing as a horcrux existed? How would he know anything at all about the dark arts, as a Hogwarts student?
    I think Tom learned about the dark arts from a hidden library in the Chamber of Secrets. (SS hid the library because the other founders didn’t want the dark arts taught at Hogwarts. In fact, I think that’s probably the real reason SS left.)
    Information from this hidden library enabled Tom to create the horcrux/diary when he was still a student.
    And I think the Chamber (rather than the ror) is the reason LV returned to Hogwarts, the reason LV even humbled himself by asking DD for a job.
    As for Harry being a horcrux, I have have been greatly influenced by Joyce Odel over at Red Hen. Based on her reasoning, I do not think Harry survived an AK curse, because I do not think LV was casting an AK; I think the spell was somewhat different because LV was attempting to make a horcurux WITH HARRY’S MURDER. It went wrong, and Harry (or his scar) became the horcrux quite unintentionally and without LV’s knowledge.
    COS gave us a clue when Harry was able to know how to destroy the diary and was able to do it without harm to himself. I think Harry will have an easier time locating the other horcruxes and destroying them because he has a bit of LV in him and is consequently immune to the sort of safeguards that hurt even a powerful wizard like DD.
    In terms of Harry’s ultimate survival, I do not think we know enough about “the physics of the soul” in JKR’s potterverse to speculate. I do think that Harry has totally reconfigured the extra soul LV inadvertantly gave him. And I think that is why LV could not stand to possess Harry at the end of OOTP.
    I also think Harry’s “extra helping” of soul is what makes him so irresistable to the Dementors. Too bad there doesn’t seem to be a reformed Dementor out there, because Harry might be able to use a Dementor to destroy the LV soul bits in those horcruxes. Harry could heap all the horcruxes in a room and just let a Dementor have at it.
    Thanks so much for having this discussion.
    By the way, I’m afraid I fall into the “old” category, chronologically anyway, but I’m a nice LOL, not a perv.
    Thanks again,
    Alice

  145. hello everyone

    hey alice, some nice thoughts however, i think the reason LV could not stand to possess harry any longer in the end of OoTP is because of wha he was thinking. After harry realised LV was speaking thru him, his scar seared with pain and he thought for sure he was gunna die, which he began to accept because he thought he would be with sirius and his parents again. In other words he was feeling love, which we all know is LV ultimate weakness.

  146. Hello Fawks, I agree with you. I just think that Harry’s “extra dollop” of soul, from LV but reconfigured to feel love as you say, was what made the possession of Harry so intolerable. LV bad vs. LV good, in other words.
    Where do you think Tom Riddle learned about horcruxes?

  147. Hmmm, good question Alice. I am not to sure but i am guessing it has somehtign to do with that dark wizard Dumbledore defeated. DD says that 2 horcrux is as far as any wizard has gone to his knowledge. But as we know as DD tells Harry, the year when Tom Riddle went of on his own and then came back with his dark ways has somehtign to do with it.(The year be4 he started his killings and working at Borgin&Burkes). Or maybe it was easy to find out about back then because Slughorn knew enough about it. It is a puzzling question never-the-less. What do you think Alice.

  148. I’m not sure how the Grendenwald, or whatever his name was, timeline compares with Riddle’s school days. But I think the diary horcrux was made while Tom was still a student. He supposedly spent summers at that orphanage, so he doesn’t seem to have had much opportunity for researching really obscure dark arts before he graduated. Slughorn was reluctant to admit he knew about horcruxes, and I think most wizards would be.
    I think Riddle got an education in the dark arts from some place inside the chamber of secrets. I think that is why LV has been so determined to get back inside the school. Even to the point of asking Dumbledore for a job! And now, with Dumbledore gone, LV can get back inside the school.
    Why do some people assume that LV could make a horcrux some time AFTER the murder? I pictured a special spell or ceremony or whatever that involved the murder and the creation of the horcrux all pretty much at the same time.

  149. hmmmmmmm that makes a lot of sense Alice. Maybe there is some hidden library that salazar slytherin had in the Chamber of Secrets and LV found it. Maybe thats where he learned about horcruxs.

  150. hey Alice , do u remember in the COS, DD tells Harry that LV is the last ancestor of Salazar Slytherin. He says ANCESTOR not DESCENDANT and when JKR was asked about it, she said it was a DILBERATE mistake. What do you think of this????

  151. If you have a copy of COS in which DD tells Harry that LV is the ancestor of Slytherin, then hold onto it. It is worth a lot of money. My COS says “descendant.”
    That whole line of thinking might tie into an old theory that LV went back in time to get rid of himself as an infant as part of some spell to make himself immortal.

  152. i see, i see.
    that will throw alot of theories off track if LV was able to go back in time and got rid of his infant self.

  153. It was called the Changling Hypothesis. Needless to say, my one sentence summary didn’t do it justice. Red Hen referred to it on her website, and offered an improved version.
    Actually, I think that the original Changling Hypothesis had LV try to get his infant self and somehow the Potters got the baby LV and intended to raise him as their own baby. And that’s why Harry had a physical resemblance to Tom Riddle and so on. He WAS Tom Riddle. In a way. You would love it.

  154. This was an old theory, before a lot of information had come out. It was called the Changling Hypothesis. Needless to say, my one sentence summary didn’t do it justice. Red Hen referred to it on her website, and offered an improved version.
    Actually, I think that the original Changling Hypothesis had LV try to get his infant self and somehow the Potters got the baby LV and intended to raise him as their own baby. And that’s why Harry had a physical resemblance to Tom Riddle and so on. He WAS Tom Riddle. In a way. You would love it.

  155. interesting, interesting. HP is baby Tom Riddle, that would be crazy. But, in a way if that turned out to be true, it would be kind of stupid and dissapointing. Maybe if Harry turne dout to be some decendant of LV, that would seem O.K. i guess.

  156. The changling hypothesis came a long time before we learned about horcruxes.
    Can anybody tell me why some people think that LV would be able to create a horcrux some time AFTER the murder that makes the horcrux possible?
    Is there something in the books that suggests such a thing?

  157. hmmm, i never thought of that alice. i didnt catch anything like that, but i’ll have to go back and re-read the books. I think that there is something fishy bout harry or even james’s history. Harry was suppose to be sorted into slytherin, but he was hoping to be sorted into gryfindor and the hat did just as he hoped.In the books it says that when LV’s attmepted murdre filed, HP inherited some of LV’s powers, Powers i can understand but how does someone transfer the language they speak?? What i mean is, how would parsletounge be transferred during an attempt murder? I understand maybe the powers and the feelings and being able to see into LV’s thoughts, but a language, i find that weird.

  158. Fawkes,
    With the parseltongue thing you mention, I always thought it was a rare power that some wizards have- particularly Slitherin and his heirs. The Gaunts could do it.
    I don’t think it’s just a language that can be learned. I think Ron mentions something like that when Harry shoots his mouth off at the duelling lesson.

    Alice, I thought that the murder needed to make a horcrux needed to be part of a whole, evil ritual. Not just a throw-away spell that you could fire off in the middle of a fight or something like that. I think it’s impossible to keep a “murder” in stock to make a horcrux in the future. Like you, I cannot think of any place in the books where this is suggested.

    Matt

  159. korg20000bc,
    I got that idea about some people thinking that a horcrux could be made from a previously committed muder in the book by Janet Batchler, “What Will Harry DO?” On page 146 she says “It seems clear that Moaning Myrtle’s murder was the one Tom used to create his Horcrux (diary). But Myrtle knows next to nothing about her own death.
    “This seems to indicate that the creation of a Horcrux is an act separate from the murder that facilitates it, and is performed independently in time.”
    I had assumed that Tom was only indirectly guilty of Myrtle’s murder, because she was killed by the basillisk.
    I had also assumed that the diary horcrux was created by the very special murder of Tom’s father, which apparently happened the summer before LV’s last year at Hogwarts.
    This is the point at which I go off on a tangent and think that Tom must have learned this very Dark Horcrux Magic inside the Chamber of Secrets, because I just can’t think where else he would have learned it.
    On page 156 Batchler goes on to say that the strongest argument in favor of Harry being a horcrux “rests in the odd psychic relationship forged between Harry and Voldemort through Harry’s curse scar.”
    Certainly, that is a big part of it, but equally important, I think, is the fact that Harry DIDN’T DIE. Over and over we hear that Harry is the only person to have survived the AK. But I don’t think Harry survived an AK. I think he survived the Horcrux Spell, which INCLUDES murder as well as the creation of a horcrux.
    And that is why I was so curious to know if anybody recalls reading anything by JKR that implies a horcrux could be created sometime after a murder, as a sort of afterthought. Because if so, my “no AK” theory would be rubbish. Which it might be anyway.

  160. hmmmm, niceley done alice,
    i like your AK theory. It does seem pretty weird for a killing curse to leave only a scar. To add to your theory though Alice check this:
    The AK curse’s main purpose is to kill.Period.
    However, if ur theory lives up, then it makes sense that Lv was trying to make Harry a horcrux. Making a Horcrux involves killing ( Harry’s Mom and Dad) and then doing the spell to rip the soul and hdie into a foreign object ( Harry) which as you said backfired, leving Harry with a scar and some powers of LV. Those powers in particular, i belive is really that fraction soul of LV that was supposed to be hidden in Harry. Maybe that is why LV is so determined to get rid of Harry himself, personnally. To make sure that the job is done and that HP is really dead, thus not throwing his counting of horcruxes off track. Which brings us back to the prophecy that Trelawney made. Even though it was explained that LV chose to make the prohecy true, some parts are yet to be fulfilled. If there really is a part of LV soul within Harry, then Harry would have to die in order for LV to die.
    “One cannot live while the other survives” i think was what the prophecy said. well if you think carefully here. They both can’t survive while the otehr is alive, but they both can die so neither would be alive. I look at it as reading between the lines of the prophecy.

  161. I just have a couple of ideas:

    1) RAB is not Regulus Black for 2 reasons.
    a)JKR said he wasn’t either in the FAQ section of her site or an interview (can’t remember which).
    b) In the Spanish version of the book Regulus has a different name that doesn’t start with R and the initials in the locket are still RAB.

    Second:
    If we buy the Authurian Hallows idea (as the title alludes to), then when can make a few connections regarding the Horcruxes-

    1. Diary
    2. Ring
    And as for the Hallows:
    3. Goblet: Hufflepuff teacup
    4. Pendant: Slytherin locket
    5. Sword or crown (depends): Ravenclaw tiara or Gryffindor sword
    6. Stick or wand: the wand in Ollivander’s window (Ravenclaw?) or the cane that came out of LV’s wand in GoF(Made from something of Gryffindor’s?)
    And finally:
    7. Voldemort himself.

    Personally, I’m partial to the tiara/cane idea.

    Thanks,
    Tory

  162. Tory, thanks for your input! I think we’ll need some kind of documentation for your points against RAB as Regulus. I recall reading that the Spanish version does match. And I’ve never heard that Rowling debunked Regulus as RAB; it’s not often she does that, unless it’s a wild theory, which it’s not.

    That said, the Arthurian Hallows theory is very likely, as I’ve written elsewhere here, and I’m also partial to either a tiara or a wand.

  163. If we are looking at a tiara as a possible Horcrux, perhaps either the goblin-made tiara that Mrs. Weasley has in her family (she could VERY likely be a descendent of Godric Gryffindor), or the tiara in the ROR could be the one.

  164. The third Horcrux was not the locket in the green potion; it was the potion.

    After Dumbeldore ingested it, the only way it could be destroyed was by destroying Dumbledore.

    Reasons:
    1)Harry notes that the locket looks nothing like what he saw in the Pensieve.
    2)The message in the locket says “I … intend to destroy it as soon as I can.. I face death”, suggesting that the writer’s death is necessary for the Horcurx to be destroyed.
    3) In the tower, Dumbledore pleads with Snape. I think he pleads with Snape to kill him so that the Horcrux within him will be destroyed. Snape does this, but very reluctantly.

    It also follows that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, all the way to the death and beyond, just like Harry.

    This doesn’t answer the question of the identity of R.A.B.

  165. Here’s the quote from the interview I read. it’s the one with Emerson of Mugglenet and Melissa of The Leaky Cauldron:

    MA: R.A.B.
    JKR: Ohhh, good.
    [All laugh.] JKR: No, I’m glad! Yes?
    MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far?
    [Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here] JKR: Do you have a theory?
    MA: We’ve come up with Regulus Black.
    JKR: Have you now?
    MA: Uh-oh.
    [Laughter.]
    JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess.

    To me, this says that it’s not Regulus because 1) it’s too obvious, and 2)she’s really implying that it’s not here. No it’s not direct or definite, but it certainly convinces me.

    In terms of who actually is RAB? I’m for the Borgin theory.

  166. Reyhan,
    Why bother having an object(locket) at the bottom of the green potion if it wasn’t the horcrux. The potion is obviously a protection for the horcrux at the bottom. The person retrieving the horcrux must go through the ordeal, kinda of a “stuff you!” from Voldemort to anyone messing with his gear.

    Matthew

  167. Tory, I suppose we’ll have to disagree on the interpretation of that particular interview. To me, at best, she’s just being elusive, and at most, she’s affirming the guess. Personally, I think R.A.B. is a “gimme” on Rowling’s part. The Black family is just too important, and the Regulus issue is a perfect door to get us back into the inner workings of that family.

    Reyhan, a clever theory, but here’s where it fails for me: it once again makes Dumbledore deliberately deceptive about horcruxes. There seems to be a lot of theories out there that argue that Dumbledore has been less than straightforward with Harry on the horcrux iusse, which is how Harry will defeat Voldemort. Why would Dumbledore undermine Harry’s attempts at horcrux-hunting by destroying one (or more) without telling him?

  168. Matthew, placing the Horcrux in the potion was one of Voldemort’s tricks. You wouldn’t expect anything he does to be straight forward. Like the diary. The letter writer seems to acknowledge this by saying “It was I who discovered your secret”

    It’s also beginning to look like all the Horcruxes are traps: Harry is almost killed in destroying the diary; Dumbledore loses his hand in getting/destroying the ring; he loses his life in getting/destroying the third Horcrux (or its facsimile).

    Travis, Dumbledore has been deceptive with Harry over a lot of things. He has to be. If we knew, through Harry, everything that Dumbledore knew, where would be the suspense and fun of discovery? And Dumbledore not disclosing the truth about the third horcrux but committing suicide-by-Snape is just plain old-fashioned good drama. As is the ongoing is-he-a-Death-Eater or is-he-a-member-of the-Order uncertainty about Snape.

    Anything is possible, of course, but for my money, the people to watch in HP7 are Mundungus and Mr. Olivander. Remember that Mundungus stole a lot of valuables from No. 3, Grimmauld Place. What do you bet the Hufflepuff Cup was one of them?
    And remember that Mr. Olivander has disappeared. Why is that? Ebert’s Law of Parsimony dictates that his disappearance has a role to play in the plot. Something to do with twin wands, perhaps? And did we ever get the name of the phoenix who only ever gave two feathers? Ask yourself this, fellow Horcrux hunters: who’s got the cursed wand, Harry, or Tom?

    God, I love this stuff.

  169. Reyhan, you wrote, “Dumbledore has been deceptive with Harry over a lot of things.”

    Really? Like when?

    And, “He has to be. If we knew, through Harry, everything that Dumbledore knew, where would be the suspense and fun of discovery?”

    Dumbledore doesn’t have to be deceptive in order to keep us guessing about the plot. There’s plenty to guess. Dumbledore wants to defeat Voldemort, so no way he’s lying to Harry about crucial info on defeating him.

    It’s not good old-fashioned drama if it’s entirely inconsistent with Dumbledore’s character. It’d be more like bad writing, in my opinion.

    Ollivander is definitely a wild card (I’ve got a whole essay on that here), as is Mundungus. I don’t think the Hufflepuff cup is something he stole, but the locket is very possible.

    If there is a horcruxed wand, Voldemort’s got it in his hands. Fawkes is the phoenix who gave the two feathers.

  170. I don’t think Dumbledore lied to Harry, as much as kept him in the dark. Examples include the “prophecy”, almost all of HP5 where Dumbledore isolated Harry from the doings of the Order as much as possible for fear of Tom Riddle finding out, why Harry has to stay with his awful relatives, why he wasn’t made a prefect, how Dumbledore got his hand burnt, and of course, Snape’s true allegiance.

    Beyond the melodrama (of Harry watching helplessly while Snape kills Dumbledore, most probably at his own behest), I think there is a good reason for all the deception. One of the themes of the series is for a young boy to grow into the knowledge – with all that entails – of adulthood. Dumbledore is his mentor, but there would be little growth if Dumbledore did all his thinking for him.

    BTW, I wouldn’t be too surprised if Dumbledore got Snape to zap his hand to get free of the second Horcrux.

  171. Reyhan, I completely agree. DD is playing the good parent here. There are things we could easily tell our kids but, often times, they have to go through the trials before they come away with a true learning experience. It is a painful lesson, but one that will stay with them. For instance, DD could tell Harry why HE trusts Snape, but there has to be that moment when Harry understands why he, himself, can trust him. That will be a very profound part of the book, IMHO.

  172. I’m still not buying this, guys…here’s why: I agree Dumbledore has kept Harry in the dark about things, and sometimes for good reason (like the identity of Snape as the snoop). But the potion as a horcrux? No way in the world Dumbledore would fail to tell Harry that. Doesn’t make sense, because it ultimately throws Harry off in his attempt to defeat Voldemort. So, yes, Dumbledore keeps things from Harry. But no, he does not deceive him, especially when it would hinder his quest to defeat LV.

    Dumbledore is most certainly not the kind of person who has done all Harry’s thinking for him. He’s guided him along the way the whole time, but he’s let Harry have his own experiences and come to his own conclusions. No deception is needed for that.

  173. If the potion was in fact the horcrux, then Dumbledore would have had to keep that knowledge from Harry. Think you, would Harry have made Dumbledore swallow it, no matter how much Dumbledore asked him to do so, if he had known what it was? I think not.

    It reminds me a little of how hard Dumbledore had to plead with Snape afterwards to kill him. And Snape was much more inured to the demands of their mission, having worked as a double-agent for sixteen odd years.

    BTW, you must all realize that Dumbledore asked Harry to kill him after he finished swallowing the potion. Why did he do that, do you think? Because the potion he was drinking was evil? You bet it was.

    My point is, Harry hadn’t reached the stage where he could consent to the sacrifice of his mentor and chief protector for the sake of their mission. Hence, the deception.

  174. Reyhan, that’s an interesting view that he was asking Harry to kill him. Myself, I think it was his response to what the potion was doing to him emotionally ie. the emotional torment he was being forced to endure. It was obviously something like the torment and murder or his students or collegues as he asks some one not to hurt them but to hurt him instead. It must get worse because he asks the tormentors to then “kill me”.

    The potion is definately evil, i completely agree with you there. But the horcrux? I don’t buy it.

    Matthew

  175. Time for the big guns.

    Read the two passages during the confrontation in the tower.

    Malfoy says to Dumbledore:

    ‘”But she said you were just going for a drink, you’d be back …”‘

    To which Dumbledore replies:

    “Well, I certainly did have a drink … and I came back … after a fashion,”

    And a little later, when Snape enters the tower (and the Death Eaters fall back in fear):

    ‘Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.’

    What do you suppose Dumbledore means, that he came back “after a fashion”? And why do you suppose Snape looks at him with “revulsion and hatred”.

    Assuming, as most of us do at this point, that Snape is Dumbledore’s man, it’s not Dumbledore he’s seeing with “revulsion and hatred”. Who is he seeing?

    Who do you think?

    How did Voldemort get within Dumbledore?

    Well, he did swallow some nasty green stuff a little earlier …

    BTW, read Dumbledore’s conversation with Malfoy carefully. It could be my suspicious mind, but isn’t a lot of what he says capable of double interpretation? Almost as if he were channeling someone …

    As for Dumbledore’s pleas while he’s drinking the stuff, no doubt we’ll find out who he was channeling then in HP7. But for some reason I’m thinking of those two kids who were terrified senseless by young Tom during the day trip from the orphanage.

    Can hardly wait till 7/7/21

  176. I would assume that DD meant that he had *had a drink* “after a fashion”, not that he *came back* after a fashion. He didn’t have a glass of ale as Malfoy had supposed, but he nevertheless drank something.

    FWIW, I don’t think DD asked *Harry* to kill in the cave him either. And for that matter I don’t think that on the tower he was pleading with Snape to kill him – quite the reverse (I’m sure he was quite capable of recognizing a look of revulsion and hatred and that he knew exactly what it meant). Nor do I think that DD was actually LV or Slughorn or even Snape, in disguise.

    On the roof, DD is very much DD as far as I can see. He immobilizes Harry to protect him and he negotiates with Malfoy in an attempt to protect him also. Hardly the actions, in either case, that we’d expect from LV. Nor Snape for that matter (and besides, Snape appears on the other side of the tower pointing a wand). And Slughorn – is strictly a slippers-and-port man who would disguise himself as an armchair sooner than face a roof of Death Eaters – or a cave full of inferi.

    A proportion of JKR’s fan base seems to be still be in denial and want to find some way – any way – that the words on the page don’t mean what they plainly mean.

    But like it or not, it’s really not that hard. I think you can assume that when it says that Snape gazed at DD with revulsion and hatred, it is because Snape reviled and hated DD. Which, incidentally, is probably a significant part of the reason why, a few moments later, he also murdered DD. Something he had likely been wanting to do for a very long time.

  177. Sorry Reyhan, but I think those big guns misfired…

    When Dumbledore said he had an drink and came back after a fashion he, like seriously_black wrote, was referring to having to drink the green potion OR the deplorable state of health he was in after drinking the potion. I don’t think it was some other character in disguise.

    When Snape looked at Dumbledore with revulsion and hatred in his face, I think it is revulsion and hatred of the thing that Dumbledore is asking him to do ie. kill him. I think there is also a lot of self-loathing going on here for Snape – having to kill the man who has given him so much and been a mentor to him. Knowing that he is still capable of killing/murder, I think, reminds him of the capability for evil that is still in him. Maybe it’s also reminding him of other people that he has killed or been forced to kill. Maybe they also said “Severus, please…”

    Matthew

  178. Hey S.B., I will admit I was in denial for a while – how could Dumbledore be dead? how could Harry carry on without him? it would be like Dr. Watson without Holmes, the slave without Socrates – but I did get over it. I’m not denying that Dumbledore is dead. I’m just saying that he took 1/7 of Voldemort with him. 2/7 if you count the ring.

    Also, I know Dumbledore does seem to be himself at certain points. But he didn’t drink all of the green potion, did he? There is one line of dialogue:

    ‘”Killing is not nearly as easy as the innocent believe”‘ which sends shivers down my spine. Sounds like the voice of experience, does it not?

    Matthew: Sure it’s possible that the revulsion and hatred reflected Snape’s feelings towards himself and his actions, and not what he was looking at. But he was definitely gazing at Dumbledore at the time.

    Anyways, the main fallacy in my theory is this: if Dumbledore drank the Horcrux, as it were, who left the false locket and the parchment? Who or what is RAB?

    If there is no answer to that which is consistent with the premise, then I too reject the potion as Horcrux theory.

  179. Reyhan, nice work! I think you’ve deconstructed your own theory. The whole RAB mystery becomes rather pointless, doesn’t it?

    I think that the potion being the horcrux creates more problems than it solves, and there’s already so much to solve in book 7.

    Furthermore, I think we’d have to question whether or not a liquid could even be a horcrux. What about thinks like evaporation? Freezing? What would these things do to a soul part? Doesn’t really seem plausible.

  180. I promised myself, no more on this topic. But can’t resist.

    Travis, if you can accept the idea that a man can divide his soul into seven segments, like a kind of spiritual orange, it seems a little picky to insist that the process be consistent with the laws of physics.

    It’s magic, for God’s sake. Oops. Sorry Laura.

  181. First let me say that I think that denial regarding DDs death goes hand in hand with denial about Snape’s palpable evil. If the courts were as eager to find excuses for cold blooded, premeditated murder as a legion of Snape fans are, we’d be witnessing the collapse of civilization about now.

    As to the question of whether DD has experience with killing, I think we can assume he has. His defeat of the evil Grindelwald probably involved more than asking Grindelwald to stand facing the corner. He has also not tried to steer Harry away from the knowledge that he must ultimately kill Voldemort. However I think we can take it that both Grindelwald and Voldemort are dangerous, beyond redemption, engaged in war on the innocent and murderous towards any who oppose them. An entirely different proposition (morally, if you will) from the killing of a wise and loving elder of the community (though still not easy, as DD attests).

    Meanwhile, saying that casting a gaze of revulsion and hatred *at a particular individual* may simply mean that the person loathes their own actions is a denial of the simple truth. We all know what the words mean – they *specify* the object of the revulsion. It’s not all that confusing. Really.

    As regards the proposition of the green liquid Horcrux, it does seem fairly improbable. The green liquid was obviously pretty nasty stuff, granted – but seeing it as anything more than a potion which was intended to protect the *contents* of the stone basin is a stretch. It’s an idea which seems better suited to explaining away inconvenient or unpalatable events which ensue, than to shedding any illumination.

    Let’s face it, as others have pointed out, the potion does *not* fit the criteria outlined by DD (Riddle wanted venerable tokens and relics of special significance, especially objects left behind by the founders). If we’re going to seriously consider the potion as a possible Horcrux, pretty soon we’ll be seeing Horcruxes everywhere. For instance, is there any reason not to suppose that the stone basin was a Horcrux. Or the boat. Or the water. Or one of the Inferi. Or all the inferi?

    Once you abandon the framework of logic and fact contained within the book (including the carefully spun understanding about Riddle and what choices he is likely to have made), then there is really no end to the speculations which become possible.

    Possible, but not plausible. ;)

  182. S_B, you test my resolve to drop the subject. But like Dumbledore’s resolve to be silent about how he knows Snape is on the side of the angels, it remains firm.

    Want to start another debate instead about what’s happening to your namesake on the other side of the dark veil?

  183. seriously_black, I’m assuming you’re a “Snape is Evil” person?

    saying that casting a gaze of revulsion and hatred *at a particular individual* may simply mean that the person loathes their own actions is a denial of the simple truth.

    But this isn’t good enough in Rowling’s world of mystery. Snape might actually loathe Dumbledore…for making him do this deed, because Dumbledore knows it’s best.

    On the whole, however, your comment is excellent advice for speculation!

  184. An interesting phrase, that: the framework of logic and fact contained within the book.

    There is, of course, another logic. A deeper logic, if you will, concerning how a story builds to its climax. In well-told tales, and the entire HP opus, and especially HP6, is certainly one, everything happens for a reason.

    Ask yourself this question: why does Snape kill Dumbledore at this point in time and not earlier, or later? What compels him to act now?

    Are the events in the cave totally unrelated to the events in the tower?

    Why did Harry and Dumbledore go through their ordeal in the cave if the real Horcrux had already been scooped by RAB?

    Mind you, JK is capable of generating a lot of sound and fury just for fun, witness the entire tri-school wizard competition which was rigged to give Harry the Goblet so he could be teleported to the cemetary. I mean, weren’t there easier ways of luring him there?

    But still. She writes that HP6 is her favorite book. Which tells me that events there are more fraught with significance than elsewhere.

    But since I’m beginning to feel more than a little like Luna Lovegood, I will not share with you my own theory about the note Harry finds in the locket, and the identity of the writer.

  185. hey, whats up everyone?

    i was just reading through the comments since teh last time i wrote and came across some interesting theory. As for the issue about the look of hatred on Snapes face when he kills DD, i have an idea. As we remember in OotP, when Harry tried to use an unforgiveable curse on Bellatrix, the cruciatus i think it was, it didnt work. Why?
    Well rememebr what she said to Harry? In order to use a unforgiveable on someone, you have to mean it, you have to want to cause them pain. Harry was angry at the time, but i dont believe he is a person who wants to cause peopel pain deep down. So as for the look of hatred on Snapes face i have 2 theroies.
    If Snape is good then he had to force that anger and willingess to kill DD by using teh unforgiveable curse. It would have been pretty stupid if he had killed DD with a look of compastion or fear.

    If Snape is indeed evil, then the look of hatred was natural and real.

    Also, about the tiopic of DD hiding certain stuff from Harry, for exampel the prohecy in OotP, i think it is quite clear. DD knows Harry can see/feel things LV does, and DD also says he suspects teh same in reverse. So if DD was to tell Harry everything, then there is a chance that LV will end up knowing, if DD theory is right. So taht is why i believe DD keeps Harry “in the dark” about certain issues.

  186. I have a question, how many times you can rip your soul without getting weaker? because if it is supposed that doing a horcrux is giving part of your soul to an object, then your body in some way gets weaker because your living without some part of the soul and if you continue dividing it youre getting a lot of tiny souls in many objects but… does thisreally affects the body or does not?

  187. Lawtrix, I don’t think you necessarily get weaker…I think you get less human. As Harry goes into the Pensieve with DD in HBP, JKR remarks that Harry notices that LV gets less human looking as time goes on. This is, in my opinion, due to the fact that he is creating Horcruxes during this time, and with each successive Horcrux, he becomes a little less human. HOWEVER, we don’t know if losing a Horcrux (by destroying it) causes him to be any weaker.

  188. I don’t understand something about horcruxes. Let’s suppose that you have your horcruxes but suddenly you die so… how does it works the horcruxes in that case? Maybe this explains the sound that many people placed in the theory of the avada kedavra being more silent than the spell casted the night of Godric Hollow, because ok you get killed by your own avada kedavra and you die, but the some horcrux most be activated in some way so that you can continue living and maybe this is the sound and the explotion that happened that night…

  189. Well, Lawtix, none of us understands about Horcruxes at this point – other than what was revealed in book six.

    However an educated guess would be that whatever normally happens at death – where, for instance, the soul may pass from the physical realm – is prevented by the soul having been split and parts of it concealed in Horcruxes. So the soul, presumably, remains trapped in the physical realm and the death is therefore incomplete even though the body may have been destroyed.

    So I suspect that it is not that the Horcrux is “activated in some way”. It is unlikely that it needs to be activated. The idea seem to be that the mere fact that a Horcrux exists prevents the soul from departing as it otherwise would.

  190. Well i only hope that in deathly hallows all this things get clarified, because there are too many things to get into the light and there is only one book left… Do you think that JKR continue answering questions if there is still a mystery in the story?

  191. What was in the cup that Dumbledore had to drink in order to get the fake horcrux?

    The scene in the cave has always run through my mind as though there must be something more to it, then the weaking of Dumbledore and the fake horcrux locket, but what. That potion or whatever it was seem important. The way Dumbledore reacts while drinking it, the things he says. Could that drink have contained a horcrux of Voldemort’s soul? It seems like from Voldemort’s point of view to be a brilliant idea.
    Here we go…
    If Voldemort discovered that the locket horcrux was missing and found out who had taken it, he could have made a horcrux from murdering R.A.B and placed it in a potion to cover the fake horcrux so that whoever else dared to remove his horcrux would become one.

    What do you think?

  192. Hey tracydaisy,

    I floated the idea that the Horcrux was contained in the green potion rather than the (fake) locket a while ago (see #179 above). The response was cool, to say the least and I stopped arguing the point at #197.

    But I do agree with you. I also think it explains why Dumbledore subsequently pleaded with Snape, and Snape killed him: they both knew that Dumbledore had ingested some of Voldemort and the only way to free Dumbledore (who is the first to argue that death is not the worst of fates) and destroy the Horcrux, was by destroying Dumbledore. Hence, the assisted suicide or death-by-Snape explanation of his death. Both theories support my view that Snape is Dumbledore’s man, through and through.

  193. I have some ideas:

    1. I think Karkaroff had known Voldemort for a long time. He mentioned Dolohov, Mulcieber and Rosier to get out of prison (GoF, The Pensieve). The very same Death Eaters followed Voldemort when he applied for a job of teacher (HBP, Lord Voldemor’s request). Voldemort might have touched at Durmstrang. I think there is a horcrux out of Great Britan.

    2. The secret keepek keeps his secret in his soul. I doubt the Voldemort is able to be a secret keeper anymore. He would have to use someone else insted (Wormtail, Snape).

    3. I had thought about Amy Benson to be R.A.B., but now I thinj you are right with Black. Anyway, she definitely knew the cave.

  194. What a page!

    I would never have thought about potion being a horcrux. I got trough the end of HBP as well as your comments. Now I think the potion was a horcux.

    The horcruxes are objects with powerful magical history (HBP, Horcruxes). The locket and the cup are supposed to hold liquid. The liquid might have been related to one of these objects. It would not have been surprise for me If the locket had had opened at the very same moment when Dumbledore died. If the potion was somehow related to Hufflepaf’s cups I would not be surprised either.

    Tracydaisy strucked the gold. The way Dumbledore reacts while drinking it, the things he says does matter.

    Anywas I do not agree with her that Volemort discovered the Horcux is missing. I think the potion returned to the basin after the death of R.A.B. on its own.

    I quite disagree with the idea than Dumbledore order Harry to kill him.

    Let me show you.

    I am lord Voldemort the heir of Slytherin. It was me who discovered chamber of secret. I will order the bazilisk to kill the mudblood. I don’t want …don’t make me… ‘

    I do not want to go to spend the summer at orphany. Hagrid is hiding a moster in a cupboard. I will blame Hagrid of opening chamber of secret. I don’t want to .. I don’t want to … let me go…’

    I will kill Tom Riddle the mudblood who gives me his name. He abandoned my mother. There are three of them. Then I kill my grandparents as well. No, no, no … no I can’t … I can’t, don’t make me, I don’t want to…’

    I made a memory charm on Gaunt. He will take be punished instead of me as well as the Hagrid was. It’s all my fault, all my fault, ‘please make it stop, Know I did wrong, oh please make it stop an I’ll never, never again…’

    I have the locket of my mother! The locket of Slytherin! I have acquired the cup of Hufflepuf as well! Those two objects are worth my soaI. I killed Hepzibah of course and blame the House Elf. It works as usual. Don’t hurt them , don’t hurt them, please please, it’s my fault hurt me instead…’

    I will kill those muggles and turn them into inferi. Please, please, please no … not that, not that, I’ll do anything …’

    I am Lord Voldermort, the heir of Slyterin. I opened the chamber of secret. I killed my unworthy muggle father. I acquire my rightful heritage. I took the cup as a bonus. I created Inferi and I use them as my guards. I will posses those who are too week. I will punish anybody who disobey my. I will kill anybody who will face me. I will become immortal. I will become the most powerful wizard ever. KILL ME!

  195. I just have read the Cave Chapter of HBP once more. I found something that might have been related to R.A.B.

    Dumbledore said: „One could not have done it“ (p540).

    My point is that we are not looking for single person; we are looking for a couple.

    I can imagine those couples:

    R. Black – Snape
    R. Black – Dumbledore
    Snape – A. Benson
    R. Black – A. Benson

    The reasons for R.Black are very well known.

    If Snape got the locket, it would be a good reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape even if Snape is the most accomplished occlumencer ever. Dumblebore would trust the man who destroyed the horcrux of Lord Voldemort (No one had thought about horcruxes those days). Neither would have thought that the potion is a horcrux (or a horcrux as well).

    R. Black – Snape was a couple I thought in a first place. It is the most likely couple. But how could both of them come to the horxcurx? That is why I a think there was a muggle near the horcrux. I would suit for A. Benson, who might be R.A.B as well.

    For me the idea of R. Black – A. Benson couple is rather wild (perhaps two R.A.B.). Now I think Snape – A. Benson couple stole the horcrux, but I am rather confused. Can you give any advice to this point?

  196. Martin, I ABSOLUTELY agree about there being 2 people who stole the cave Horcrux. There were too many clues given to suggest that only one wizard would be able to do it. In fact, I think it was an adult wizard and someone under the age of 17 (their magic wouldn’t register against the adult wizard, just as Harry’s magic didn’t register against DD’s). I tend to think it was one of the kids from the orphanage and an adult wizard. Regulus And Benson…Regulus And Bishop???

  197. Another posibility is that voldemorts wand is a horcrux. We all know that voldemort liked his wand as we have seen from the pensive so why not turn it into a horcrux as well?
    the wand was hidden someware becouse in GoF V asks wormtail to hand him his wand, and he (wormtail) could hardly have kept it for him being a rat. So it must of been hidden for safekeeping.
    Think about that.

  198. hey!!!

    wow!!… its been almost a whole year since my last post!… i cant believe it!… last time i was around here was the 27 of march 2006!!… wow!…
    well!… im back!.. and hopefully will be able to write some of my new ideas! =P…

    to begin with i want to say that i dont think voldemort would have his wand made a horcrux… he obviously cares for it… but as he has shown, he make horcruxes of bigger importance… for example… we know that he wanted at least one object from each of the founders…
    then he chose two objects that mark him being the heir of slytherin… the ring… no need of explenation there… and the diary… although it does not connect with being the heir of sltherin at a physical book.. jk made it obvious that he was the slytherin heir…
    if he did get all that then we have six horcruxes, plus his soul in him… all in all we get 7! =D
    i dont think he got the gryffindor object… so he had two choices.. one was to make anything a horcrux.. which acording to dumbledore would be nagini… or he just has six…
    im sure that he got the ravenclaw object… dont now why… but mu guts say he did! =P

    well!.. that all the time i have today!… i hope to come back soon!!!

    Maca!

  199. Given the new information we just got from the cover art of HP7, it might be time to look at the issue of provenance for at least one of the Horcruxes. And maybe others as well.

    The British children’s edition shows Harry, Ron, Hermione and either Dobby or Kreacher, fighting off the unseen enemy in what looks like a Gringott’s vault.

    The British adult edition simply features Slytherin’s locket, seemingly intact.

    The US edition shows Harry fighting alone, wearing what looks like the locket, in what looks like an amphitheatre, surrounded by misty critters.

    Travis and Iris in another post have already linked the presence of the elf with the appearance of the locket and the setting of the vault (possibly the Black family vault)taking the first steps towards establishing provenance.

    These are my thoughts:

    R.A.B. (most likely Regulus Black) takes the locket from the cave, intending to destroy it.

    But is killed before he can.

    Leaving the locket at 12 Grimauld place.

    Where it sits, undetected, for 10 years.

    During Mrs. Weasley’s cleaning spree, Kreacher sees it (maybe he’s been looking for it) and sneaks away with it.

    And brings it to Hogwarts with him.

    Where Dobby sees it and takes it to Harry.

    Too tame?

  200. Reyhan

    in the us cover harry is not alone… if u see the complete cover he is with voldemort and that are both looking at the same point… above them… or reaching to something… quite strange… heres the link to see the whole thing… http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/dhcovers/dhusfull.jpg

    and my other coment is that in the uk childrens version, above the title… there is a wierd triangle… (in the “lomo”… have no idea how to say it in english… its in spanish…)(in the book its the part which is written sideways… hope u understand!)…
    know this is quite rare in my opinion because if i remember correctly… the arthurian tarot has something of the sort… i remeber there wre 4 objects…
    sword represents a –> wand
    so that might be a clue to a horcrux…
    the rest of the objects i cant remember… but ill be sure to look it up during the week!…
    i have no idea if u ever considered these four objects… but in spanish websites it was a pretty famous theory….

    thats all the time i got…

    Maca

  201. Hi everyone I was shocked to know that the three covers were released lately. Now we have more hints to know what is coming in deathly hallows.

    I wanted to post a message about horcruxes, I have thought about how many horcruxes does harry has to found, but, do they are all of them horcruxes? I mean when Voldemort gave a part of his soul to a horcrux was because when he died he will continue living because of the other parts remaining, but when you die i think that the part of the soul that you are taking its gone because you already lost it when you died, then you continue living not because of the soul you had on your body because that was just left, but you have your other pieces so one of them have to be sacrificed to give you life in a ghost form like voldemort experienced so if this is true maybe harry must found four more but one of them is not a horcrux anymore because it was “activated” when he died…

    Maca the triangle thing you mentioned i think it’s the publisher’s symbol because it doesn’t seem to be part of the illustration

  202. Reyhan, I disagree that Voldemort made a horcrux when he killed his father. Voledmort alredy has the ring when he asked about horcruxes. (HBP, Horcruxes, p. 462).

  203. Good point, Martin. But too bad. It would have given the Horcrux an extra je-ne-sais-pas-quoi if it had been created by an act of patricide.

    That begs the question: who did he kill to Horcrux the ring? Or is that a futile question? If he killed a lot of people, it might not be possible to link the murders with the Horcruxes exactly. There might in fact be more murders than Horcruxes. Sick as that sounds.

    I have to admit, JKR does seem to understand the nature of evil. How Voldemort becomes less and less human as time goes on, how manipulative, deceitful and shallow he is, and how little importance everything and everyone has for him, in contrast to his own desires.

  204. Martin,
    you touched on something that has been bugging me for awhile (see #169.) I think the mugglenetters followed your reasoning in “What Will Happen in Harry Potter 7.” On page 156, the authors refer to the Slughorn memory in which Tom Riddle was wearing Marvolo’s gold and black ring. Meaning Tom Riddle had already killed when he tried to get Slughorn’s opinion about the power of number “7.”
    The Mugglenetters go way beyond cannon, however, when they state that Tom hardly knew anything at all about horcruxes when he had that talk with Slughorn.
    Mugglenet: “He (Tom) learned what he did about Horcruxes from the first pointers Slughorn gave him during this meeting.”
    This leads to the conclusion that Tom “presumably created his first Horcrux, the diary Horcrux, using the piece of his soul split from the earlier murder of his father. The order of these events is very important because it shows that, as long as one has committed murder, one can make a Horcrux from that murder at any time. No premeditated Horcrux spell is necessary.” Ergo, when Voldemort set out to kill Harry, he did not have to be prepared to make a Horcrux; he could do that at his leisure afterwards.
    That’s not how I see it.
    Riddle did NOT learn about horcruxes from Slughorn. JKR goes to great lengths to establish that the memory Slughorn eventually does share with Harry and DD is accurate.
    I think Riddle found out how to make a horcrux from another source.
    Given that all this horcrux experimentation began while Tom was a student, and given his lack of a wizarding family with a Dark Arts library, there is a real mystery about Tom’s Dark Arts instruction.
    The Chamber of Secrets really wouldn’t live up to its name if the only secret it held was the identity of the monster.
    If I missed something along the way, please let me know.

  205. Alice, Reyhan

    I have got through your comments. I have checked Horcrux chapter as well. I have thought about it. I have changed some of my opinions. I often do so. Now I have something to write. I will:

    1. Explain why I had thought that a horcrux must be done immediately after the murder.
    2. I will deny the idea, that the ring was a horcrux when Voldemort asked Slughorn about horcruxes.
    3. Explain why it is possible to make a horcurx long after the murder.
    4. Prepare a horcrux talbe. It will be based on Reayhan’s table. It will differ.
    5. I will ask questions about six would be horxcurx.

    1. I had the idea that Voldemort must kill someone just before he creates a horcrux.

    Voldemort definitely killed more than six people: Myrtle, Three Riddles, H. Smith, Two Potters, Bryce. I believe we would be able to find more.

    I remembered that Voldemort might have turned Nagini into horxcrux after he killed Frank Bryce. I remembered that Voldemort planned the process of creating a horcrux for significant deaths. I rather checked those points.

    It is written:

    “He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths” (HBP, Horcruxes, p. 473).

    Now it seems to me rather like the taste of Voldemort, like a need. We know Voldemort collects trophies, objects with powerful magical history. It is very same.

    “After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old muggle man, and might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrucx” (HBP, Horcruxes, p. 473).

    In fact he did not! Voldemort killed Bryce himself (GoF, Riddle house). Dumbledore obviously made a mistake. Or did he?

    I have more to say: Dumbledore is only talking about an idea not about a need.

    There is no evidence Voldermort had to kill someone just before he creates a horcrux. I guess I was wrong.

    2. One may says, that the ring was a horcrux when Voldemord asked Slughorn. It might be the way to save the „murder before horcrux” theory.

    I do not doubt Voldemort killed more than six people. But I could not find suitable answer to Reyhans question either. I would say Voldemort was rather careful when he was young.

    I do agree that Slughor did not teach Voldemort how to create a horcrux. Anyway Slughorn told Voldemort what are horcruxes and what are they for. I was the very thing Voldemort needed. Voldemort does not behave like a man who has already created a horcrux:

    ”But Riddle’s hunger was now apparent; his expression was greed, he could not longer hide his longing.” (HBP, Horcruxes p. 465)”.

    I believe Voldemort found out later how to make a horcrux that is the „murder before horcrux” has no support. I the next paragraph I will explain why it is possible to make a horcrux long after the murder.

    3. I do agree Rowling is good and great. Anyway I dare say in the world of Harry Potter soul is powerful tool as well. There are very strict laws how souls behaves.

    Soul can be split. How can soul be split?

    “By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: he would encase the torn portion – “ (HBP Horcruxes p. 465).

    That is whoever commits murder split his soul. That is Dumbledore and Moody would have been able to create a horcrux as well. Anyway they had prefered their soles to go beyond the veil (another soul’s law).

    If fact Dumbledore advice Harry not to kill, at least not to kill before he is to kill Voldemort “he never understand the incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole” (HBP, The Horcruxes p. 478). I dare say this is an advice not to kill Severus Snape.

    I thin we should be very careful whenever Rowling use the world soul. It is a powerful magic beyond.

    4. Considering previous points and the Reayhans table I prepard another table. It has those colums:

    Horxruc
    Related murder
    Place of murder
    Place of Gain
    Place of hiding

    Hocrcux/Related murder/Place of muderd
    1.Diary/Myrtle/Hogwarts
    2.Ring/Riddle – father/Riddle’s house
    3.Locket-Poition/Riddle-grandfather/Riddle’s house
    4.Cup/H. Smiths/Smiths’flat

    1Hocrcux Place of Gain Place of Hiding
    1.Diary/-/L. Malfoy
    2.Ring/Marvolo’s house/Marvolo’s house
    3.Locket-Poition/Smiths’flat/Cave
    4.Cup/Smiths’flat/Burried in South of Europe ?
    5 ?/Germany ?/Hogwarts ?
    6. Nagini?/?/Souths Europe?

    5. I have a question: If Voldemort succeeded what the last line would have looked like? I have some proposals:

    Hocrcux Related murder Place of muderd
    Sword of Gryfindor ? Or Invisible Cloak ?/Harry Potter/Gordric Hollow

    Hocrcux Place of Gain Place of muderd
    Sword of Gryfindor ? or Invisible Cloak?/Gordric Hollow/Riddle’s house (fireplace)?

  206. Martin, I’m not sure that we have enough evidence to support all of these links. Why the ring for Tom Riddle Sr., the locket for grandpa Riddle and the cup for Hepzibah Smith? Are they best guesses? And the places of hiding for #4,5 and 6? What is the evidence? We don’t even know what Horcrux #5 is so we can’t speculate on who died/when/where it’s hidden. And the provenance of #3 is incredibly murky. We don’t know where it’s been or where it is now. All we know is that LV stole it from Hepzibah Smith.

    Anyways, I’d be interested in hearing your logic for the links you’ve suggested.

    In the meantime, here is one possible line of speculation:

    I was just reading HP4, and I came to the scene where the two wands “connect” and the ghosts of LV’s murders start emerging in reverse order of death from the tip of his wand. Cedric Diggory comes out first. Then Frank Bryce. Then Bertha Jorkins. Then James Potter. And then Lily Potter.

    This tells us that there were no murders between Lily Potter and Bertha Jorkins. And since LV wasn’t in any shape to wield a wand after the murder of Lily Potter until Wormtongue found him hiding out in the forests of Albania, and there wasn’t enough time between the two Potter deaths to be Horcruxing, the penultimate Horcrux had to be have been created prior to the deaths of the Potters.

    Which, incidentally, means that neither Harry nor his scar can be Horcruxes.

    And suggests that Nagini was Horcruxed with the deaths of either Bryce or Jorkins. My money would be on Jorkins.

    So the provenance of #’s 1,2 and 6 seem fairly clear. It’s #s 3, 4 and 5 which are very murky indeed.

    All this, of course, is based on the assumption that the murder and the Horcrux have to be closely linked in time, and that you can’t store “soul fragments” until an appropriate repository comes along. Otherwise, I’m no further ahead.

  207. Just re-read my own post, and realized there’s something odd going on here. When the ghosts emerged from the connection between the wands, James came out before Lily. Yet he had to have been killed first and therefore should have come out last, as per Dumbledore: “The most recent (spell) first … and then those which preceded it.” And James’ words to Harry were: “Your mother’s coming … She wants to see you.”

    What do we make of this?

    Ideas, anyone?

  208. Reyhan,
    That is an acknowledged mistake in the first print run, which JKR has commented on publicly. It has been corrected in subsequent printings.

  209. Before we leave GOF…I have been thinking about priori incantatem, horcruxes and deathly hallows.
    The priori incantatem at the end of GOF is, of course, quite different from the ordinary spell performed by Amos Diggory at the beginning. But just HOW unusual was it?
    “The golden thread connecting Harry and Voldemort splintered: though the wands remained connected, a thousand more offshoots arced high over Harry and Voldemort, criss-crossing all around them, until they were enclosed in a golden, dome-shaped web, a cage of light…”
    Voldemort himself looks “astonished” at this odd turn of events. LV seems even more shocked when the smoky figure of Cedric SPEAKS.
    As the smoky figures surround LV, his face was “livid with fear…”
    Is all this due to a wand being forced to do mortal combat with its brother?
    Might some of it be due to the a priori making of a horcrux?
    Reyhan, you made me think of this when you said that we did not see the horcrux spell at the end of GOF, along with the victims, but maybe we did.
    After all, we don’t know what a horcrux spell looks like. Maybe it looks like a cage of light, and what we were seeing was the shadow of LV’s botched horcrux spell.
    With respect to the title of Book 7, I also started to wonder about LV and Harry being carried away from the cemetery:
    “Harry “felt his feet lift from the ground. He and Voldemort were both being raised into the air, their wands still connected by that thread of shimmering golden light. They were gliding away from the tombstone of Voldemort’s father, and then came to rest on a patch of ground that was clear and free of graves…”
    They had been standing on the desecrated grave of Tom Riddle Sr.
    Might there be some connection with a broken soul and hallowed ground here?

  210. Well Reyhan,

    I appreciate your comment. I have some answer for you.

    I am aware one must have proofs for his arguments.

    Anyway often is useful to set a hypothesis and then check it later. In the comment 222 I have put question mark on thesis where I do not think I have suitable burden of proof.

    I am inspired by many comments on this page, but I recognize Rowling writings as only proving resource.

    My answer has these parts:

    1. Following Voldermort
    2. Riddle, Riddle, Smith Defence
    3. Short note on Horcrux 3
    4. Hypothesis I work with
    5. Reasoning for my guesses

    1. Following Voldermort

    Dumbledore have though Harry private lessons in order to help him to vanquished lord Voldemort. It was not advance magic. It was the way of Voldemort thinking and behavior. I was about the live of Voldemort as well.

    We know feeling of importance is crucial for Voldemort. Voldemort is collecting objects with powerful magical history. He hides them in places that are important to him.

    Evidence: Marvolo’s ring was hidden in his house. There was a hocrrux hidden in the cave where Voldemort had tortured Benson and Bishop.

    My point is we should follow Voldemort in his live. We should concentrate on his feeling of importance.

    2. Riddle, Riddle, Smith Defence

    I looked for some proves that a murder must happen just before horcrux creation. I could not find a one. I have failed. But I discovered the opposite proof.

    Evidence: „Killing Rips the Soul Appart The wizard intent upon creating a horcrux would use the damage to his advantage:” (HBP, Horcurxes, p. 465).

    That is anybody who kills split his soul. It is not a spell. Moody killed Rosier (GoF, Pensieve). Moody would be able to create a hocrcux. But he does not intend to. Split soul is an advantage only for a wizard who intends to make a horxrux.

    In general spilt soul is rather a disadvantage: “he was in such a hurry to mutilate his own soul, he never paused to understand to incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole” (HBP, Horcurxes, p. 478).

    I would be glad if you could give me any evidence to support the idea that a murder must happend just before creating a horcrux.

    My next point is that Voldemort always has more possibilities to create a horxcurx than real horxrucxed. When he finished school, he had already killed four people. He had only two horxcurxes. Why was this so? Voldemort had not found object which was worth of his soul yet.

    Those are my points:

    A. It is necessary to kill a person to create a horxruc, but it might not be just before the murder.
    B. Importance is crucial to Voldemort
    C. Voldemort was obsessed with his parentage.
    D. Voldemort has a strong realation to Hogwarts.

    Voldemort planned creation of horcrux for significant deaths; it gives him feeling of importance.

    I think Voldemort enjoyed the idea to relate object from his wizard ancestors and murders of his muggle ancestors. I believe Voldemort loved the idea to kill the heir of Hufflepuff and take her cup.

    Relations Riddle sr. – ring, Riddle grandpa – horcrux 3 (locket involved), Smith – cup are not guessed. They are feelings of lord Voldemort. I believe we have enough evidence for this.

    3. Short note on Horcrux 3

    There was a lot written about the cave. I am prepared to defend my opinions to hocrcux 3 in a separate post. For now I just note I have good reasons to believe:

    A. There was a slytherin locket in a basin
    B. There was a piece of Voldemort soul in a green potion

    4. Hypothesis I work with

    There is a hypothesis that there are following relations:

    Slytherin – Water
    Hufflepuff – Earth
    Rawenclaw – Air
    Gryffindor – Fire

    I had no idea before I had visited this page.

    I think animals which represent each house rather support this hypothesis.

    5. Reasoning for guesses

    Voldemort hid horcrux 3 in a cave. It was in the middle of a lake. The green potion was a liquid. It suggests Voldemort was going to prepare an earth protection for cup. That is why I think the cup is buried.

    I can think of a significant place: Graveyard near the Riddle house. On the other side Dumbledore is the greatest wizard in the world. He was hunting horcruxes about a year before he died. I believe he track down all the horcruxes he could. I can think of the following reason why Dumbledore would not have been able to track down a horcrux:

    A. It was too far.
    B. It was in Hogwarts, protected by special magic (Chamber or Secret, Room of Requirement).
    C. It was with Voldemort.

    I think Dubledore would have got the cup if it had been buried at the cementary. That is why I can Imagine Voldemort leaving Great Britain with the cup.

    We have some clues Voldemort spent some times in continental Europe. If we compare the GoF, The Pensieve chapter and HBP, The Lord Voldemort’s Request we will find that the three Death Eaters mention by Karkaroff followed Voldemort to Britan, when he applied for the job. If looks like Karkaroff and Dolohov were close to each other.

    Even if Karkaroff is from eastern or northern Europe, I guess the cup is hidden in the south.

    There is something funny: Voldemort had been hiding in Alabnia, Charlie Weasly works in Romania, Krum is from Bulgaria. I thin Harry will visit south of Europe. He might get the cup.

    I think Voldemort would not mind to get a relic from Grinewald. I do not pretend I have an idea what it was. Despite the fact I do not know what it is; I have reason to think it is at Hogwarts:

    A. It would be possible to hide a horcrux at Hogwarts so Dumbledore can not get it.
    B. Voldemort hides horcruxes on places where he did something tricky and violent. He killed Myrtle there.
    C. Voldemort was definitely up to something.
    D. A terrible curse felt on Hogwart. Not even Dumbledore was able to discover what it was and how to break it.
    E. Harry would have good reason to start a school year at Hogwarts.

    There is lot of good post about horcrux at Hogwarts (I have noticed that tiara is often mentioned. I did not manage to find it where. Can anybody give me a number of a page?).

    To Nagini: I only know it was acquired in the souths of Europe as Voldemort had been hiding in Albania.

    I have an imagination Voldemort had been deciding whether he would kill the heir of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. He chose Gryffindor.

    If Voldemort had killed Harry, he might have hid the last relic into the fireplace of Riddle’ house. It would have fulfilled both patters: Gryffindor – fire, important place – hideout.

  211. I had promised a post on horcrux 3. Here it is.

    I will:

    1. Argue that Dumbledore had known about a horcurx before Harry was born.
    2. Part in soul in a horcrux of lord Voldemort can spread to the most closely related object.
    3. Explain how I think horcurx 3 was designed.
    4. Explain how I think horcurx 3 was destroyed.

    1. Dumbledore had known what are horcruxes for a log time.

    It’s banned subject at Hogwarts you know. Dumbledore’s particularly fierce about it (HBP, Horcruxes, p. 446).

    On the other side Dumbledore had not know it is possible to make more than one horcrux.

    “As far as I know – as far, I am sure, as Voldemort knew – no wizard had ever done more than tears his soul in two. (HBP, Horcruxes, p. 446).

    As Dumbledore was wise, smart and able wizard he could expect being like Voldemort to make a horcrux. Actually I think Dumbledore did. He expected one single object so he would not have look for a horcurx if he had known about a horcurx being destroyed.

    Why did he not tell Harry?

    (“That, Harry is a matter between Professor Snape and myself”, GoF paperback, The Pensieve, p. 524). Harry wondered what made Dublemdore to think Snape stopped supporting Voldemort and this was the answer. In fact this answer is suitable previous question. Dumbledore completely trusted Snape: because Snape get a horcurx.

    Dumbledore do not want to risk Voldemort will find Snape was involved in horcrux destruction. When Snape killed Dumbledore he became high rank Death Eater again; Snape is the last ace in Dumbledore’s game against Voldemort.

    Horcrux 3 that is horcrux in Cave was reached (I believe before Voldermort downfall) and there are no sings of another horcurx being reached those days; so I believe the Snape was involved in the Cave.

    In paragraph 4 I will explain how I thin was the horcrux 3 destoryed, but before that I will explain how the horcrux was arranged and what made it possible.

    2. In Chamber of Secret Riddle from diary said: “to start pouring little of my soul into her…” (CoS paperback, The Heir of Slytherin, p. 228). Words “My” and “her” are written in Italic.

    This statement made some people to think that Ginny is a horcrux. (Is Harry a Horcrux post). I disagree. Ginny was lying unconscious in chamber of secret, she was dying. Part of soul, which had been in Ginny had come out. It was taking Ginny’s life with. Some part of soul which was still in diary might come out and join Ginny part to form diary riddle. We could see the diary Riddle was not able to exist without the diary: so the diary horcrux was completely destroyed. Ginny Weasly is not a horcrux anymore.

    Perhaps we do not fully appreciate achievements of lord Voldemort. He was not just able to made more than one horcrux but he managed to make horxcurx part of soul to split once more and spread to a related object. Diary-Victim of a Diary is a related couple in this case.

    As Voldemort found have to make soul spread between related object he might use it later when making horcruxes. I can thin about two use souls spreading:

    A. Divide a part between two related objects so one would not care about the second part as he was expecting a single object.

    B. Make a trap that is when one would stole a horcrux he would became a one.

    I believe Voldemort used soul spreading in both ways I have mention when he was designing horcrux 3.

    3. Voldemort killed H. Smiths and he was looking for suitable hideout for the locket. The cave was such a hideout. Few people come there, there was lot of water; it was an important place to Voldemort: he tortured children in the cave. Main of all, locket had to have certain protection.

    I do not know where Voldemort got the green potion: it might have been in locket (compressed); have been made by Voldemort or have been acquired elsewhere.

    Voldemort arranged the horcrux so nobody but him can get it: he prepared a ship for one wizard in age to come to the basin, there after Voldemort place part of his soul into the green potion, only Voldmemort would be able to drink the poison with no harm. Anyone else would feel thick and most likely collapsed; afterward he would be a very easy target for inferi.

    But what would happen if a second person came and founded an empty basin? It is possible to put a spell on a liquid so the liquid follow a simple instruction. “but as he approached Dumbledore’s mouth the water vanished again” (HBP, The Cave, p .537). The insturction for water might be: “Water, when someone tries to drink you disappears”.

    The green potion had another instruction: “Potion when person, who drank you die, return to the basin.” The basin would have filled again after the death of intruder.

    Will there be any reason to protect locket whit no part of soul Voldemort? I do not think so. I believe there was equal part in of Voldemort’s soul in the basin and in the locket. As locket is suppose to hold a liquid, locket and potion are very likely to become related. I think Voldemort used soul spreading: he made locket a horcrux, soon after he made part of soul to spread into the green potion. I am talking neither about locket horcrux nor the potion horcrux but about locket-potion horcrux.

    Voldemort prepared ingenious protection but he made a mistake as well: he did no expect sixteen year or muggle to come to close to horcrux.

    4. Death Eater knew Voldemort took same steps to immortality. “They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself mortal death?” (GoF paperback, The Death Eaters, p. 562). Some Death Easters might found about horcruxes. It is likely that there was at least one death eather involved in the Cave. There had to be at least one person who did not count on ship that is either a muggle or sixteen year old R. Black. Acctually it is possible that group of Death Easter get the locket (I am talking about couple Snape – R. Black).

    Snape and R.A.B. travelled to the basin. R.A.B drunk the poison. R.A.B. and Snape destroyed the horcrux. Locket might still exists but it is not a horcrux anymore. The locket is the very single object, Dumbledore knew as a destroyed horcrux.

    R.A.B. died soon after so the green potion returned to the basin.

    Dumbledore checked the Cave when he was searching for horcurxes, discovered what the green potion is and how to destroyed it. Unfortunately, person who would drink the potion had to die.

    The Cave gave Dumbledore great opportunity to teach Harry some more lessons; Dumbledore took Harry to the place he already knew. Dumbledore and Snape knew about Voldemort’s plane and they prepare a counter plane. Snape was to kill Dumbledore and destroy the poiton part of horcrux.

    Funny thing is that both plans succeded. Dumbledor is deaths, locket-potion horcrux is finnaly destoryed, Harry learnt his lessons and he is prepared to truck down remaining horcurxes and face Voldemort in the end.

  212. weel for all the talk about unknown horcuxes I believe that the horcrux in slytherins locket actually exists and was taken by RAB .
    in order of phoenix when they were clearing out 12 grimmauld place they had a locket they couldn’t open question where did they throw it . I believe that is the locket rab found in half blood prince
    any comments

  213. I think that RAB is still alive and it’s Borgin, because he knew in some kind Voldemort, because he went to school at the same time with Tom Riddle.

    It can’t be Regulus because he died too young to be a great wizard at his age and destroy a horcrux, anyway he wasn’t to close to Voldemort to know what he was up to.

    In Half blood prince Mundungus says that he has some business with Borgin, so maybe he disappears because he doesn’t want to meet Voldemort because he will kill him for destroying his horcrux.

  214. Hi Lawtix,
    I’m afraid that it seems highly likely that you are mistaken, and that RAB is not in fact Borgin.

    One of the various pieces of evidence for this is that the authorised translations of HBP into various languages include changes of the initials RAB to various other letters (RAZ, RAS, RAM, RAN, etc) depending on the language, and in these various translations, Borgin’s name does not begin with the corresponding letter.

    For instance in the Norwegian edition, Borgin’s name is given as Borgia, but the initials in the fake horcrux note in the Norwegian edition are R.A.S. No match.

    What *is* interesting, however, is that the initials on the Fake Horcrux note in each language correspond to the letter with which the translation of the word “Black” begins in that language.

    So for instance, the Dutch word for Black is “Zwarts”, and in the Dutch edition, the fake horcrux note is signed R.A.Z. The French translation of Black is “Noir” and in the French edition, the fake horcrux note is signed R.A.N. The Norwegian translation of Black is “Svaart” and in the Norwegian edition, the fake horcrux note is signed R.A.S. The Finnish translation of Black is “Musta” and in the Finnish edition, the fake horcrux note is signed R.A.M. and so on.

    Whilst the translations demonstrate that R.A.B. is *not* Borgin, it’s interesting to note that they are uniformly consistent with Regulus Arcturus Black’s initials (Regulus’ middle name – taken from his paternal grandfather – was revealed on the ‘Harry Potter Lexicon’ in August 05).

    Put this together with various other pieces of equally compelling evidence – including the fact that JK Rowling has said Regulus Black would be a “fine guess” for R.A.B’s identity, and I think the implications are clear.

    All other evidence aside, I really don’t think that JKR is in the business of saying that something is a “fine guess” if it is flat out wrong and leads to a dead end.

  215. Thanks for replying i think that i am so used to take Rowling hints in some other ways that i can’t imagine that this time is just as simple as that… What you’ve said is really a fine guess of RAB ;)

  216. Voldemort persuaded Slughorn to tell him what horcruxes are for. During the conversation Voldemort made following statement: “I mean, would one Horcrux be much use? Can you split your soul once? Wouldn’t it better, make you stronger, to have your soul in more than one pieces? I mean, for instance, isn’t seven the most powerfully magical number, wouldn’t seven-?’“ (HBP, Horcruxes, p 465-466).

    Did Voldemort mean seven pieces of soul or seven horcruxes? We are so unlucky than Slughorn interrupted Voldemort. It was Slughorn who made a statement about seven pieces:“but to rip it into seven pieces” (HBP, Horcruxes, p 466). Slughorn might judge Voldemort slightly better.

    Harry and Dumbledore both saw the same scene. Harry said: “He made seven horcruxes?” (HBP, Horcruxes, p 470). Dumbledore addopted Slughorn’n explanation: “But firstly, no, Harry not seven Horcruxes: six” (HBP, Horcruxes, p. 470).

    Harry accepted Dumbledore’s explanation but I do not know whether he should. Slughorn statement might have misled Dumbledore. For once, Harry might have been right.

    Anyway, everything I have already written in this post is rather confusing than proving. It only shows there are six or seven horcruxes. Do we have any other clue? Accutally we do. Number seven in Harry’s statement is in italic font. As Rowling always has a reason when she uses italic, my conclusion is that there are seven horcurxes.

  217. Gee Martin.

    Seven is the most majical number, so Voldemort is going to rip his soul into eight pieces.

    Makes no sense to me.

    I think you’re confusing the issue unnecessarily. It’s really not that hard.

  218. This sounds little bit better: Seven is most powerfully magical number, so Voldemort was going to have seven horcruxes, to split his souls seven times.

    But suppose you are right. Why there is the italic font then?

  219. hi
    i think that the conversation with slughorn does not nessacarily means that Voldemort didn’t make horcruxes before that.
    Like Dumbledore said; what he realy wanted to know was Slughors opinion about having your soul in seven pieces.

    I also think that horcruxes have to be made shortly after e specific dead. why would he otherwise want to save the making of the horcruxes for significant dead’s?
    If he could make a horcrux like a year after he has killed someone what would be the point in killing someone significant to do it. he’s killed a lot of people .

    I don’t know if you’ll understand what i mean but i hope someone does

    What do you tink?

  220. hi me again
    the weird triangle on the book cover that was mentioned is not a logo because i have that version of the books HBP and OOTP and on the cover of HBP there is on the same place a drawing of a ring
    so the triangle might be important

  221. I have read alot of discussions on what will happen in the 7th book and what will be revealed. I think there will obviously be a large revelation about the relationship between Slughorn, Lilly, and Snape, and what those relationships led to.

    But i think the one person everyone seems to be forgetting is Pettunia. I have a very strong suspicion that she stole something from james, who i think we will find is the heir or Gryffindor. With this kind of revelation petunia may be holding a relic of Gryfindor that could be a horcrux. This may be true or not but i garuntee she holds the key to something extremely important to the story.

    Also i have a feeling that the invisibility cloak is far more important that it has been given credit. The fact that James gave it to Dumbledore for safe keeping must have meant that is has far more power then meets the eye.

    Just some thoughts that have come up in my mind. But honestly does anyone else think that waiting for this book to come out is taking FOREVER!

  222. Haven’t read all of these replies, but here’s my venture at what is going on based on stuff I’ve heard from various people.

    The “missing” horcrux is more than likely to be a Ravenclaw artifact which leads me to think it would be Ravenclaw’s wand. Seeing as Ollivander’s shop was emptied and the owner disappeared, it seems worth noting that the wand may have been there and either saved by Ollivander or taken by Death Eaters.

    The locket could be the one found in the Black mansion, seeing as the house is unplottable and with nearly every defensive spell placed on it, this is a very safe place to hide the horcrux from Voldemort. This leads me to my last note on who RAB is.

    I tend to agree that it must be Regulus Black, it is not like Rowling to introduce that important of a character in the final chapter of the story, so it should be a character we are already familiar with. This is supported when looking at foreign additions to the book, like German, where the name is Regulus Schwartz and the initials left in the fake locket became RAS. This is far too much to be coincidence. It would seem that as Sirius said in OotP, Regulus got in too far, but instead of getting scared, he realized what was going on and decided to try to stop it (like brother perhaps). My conjecture is that Regulus used a partner just as Dumbledore used Harry. The timeline would suggest that Regulus would have only been a couple years older than Harry, so someone insignificant would have needed to accompany him in order to pass on the boat unnoticed by Voldemort’s spells, either that or someone that Voldemore hadn’t though would try to cross. This leads me to think Regulus ordered Kreatcher to help him, a house elf is not the most likely candidate for Voldemore to think of while placing his spells, he would have expected powerful wizards. Kreatcher was forced to drink the potion, which did not kill or severely injure him as it did to Dumbledore, however it could be an explanation of why he is so crazy in OotP.

    Just some thoughts, and for the record…no way is Harry or any part of him a Horcrux. Wizards of that caliber do not split their soul into an object “accidentally”, it seems only logical that a tremendous amount of thought and power would need to go into creating a Horcrux, otherwise every evil wizard and their sister would have a matching set.

    ~KC

  223. KC and Laurien,,

    I was very pleased to read your posts. I guess you might have joint recently, if it is so welcome! I can assure you people who posts on Gryffindorswor are always happy to see new people to join.

    Laurien,,

    You expressed your thoughts clearly, very clearly indeed. I am afraid I do not agree with you, I will explain in a separate post. For now I can assure you I have nothing personally against you. Actually I am rather pleased, if we had same opinion we would not have much to talk about.

    KC,

    What a post! I had not thought about Kreacher before.

    I afraid Harry is a horcrux and I believe there is a strong evidence for this. I can propose you to ways to check the evidence: You could either go through all the post on Is-Harry-a-Horcrux or drop me a line there; I should have been able to prepare a brief summary for you.

    Meanwhile, Generally speaking wizard and witches do not make a horcrux accidentally. Regarding Harry, there are two possibilities to consider:

    1. He was made horcrux willingly (In that case you are quite right there are not accidental horcruxes);
    2. He was made horcrux by mistake. Well Harry and Voldemort are special case: Voldemort was to make his final horcrux but the curse backfired; it was Dumbledore who said Voldemort transformed part of himself into Harry, soul could be included.

    Anyway, I you have any evidence against Harry being horcrux you are do not hesitate to post it.

  224. Without thoroughly digging, my main reasoning for Harry not being a Horcrux is in the way they are made. We know very little as to how they are made, but what we do know is that a death is needed to create one which implies a person must die first then an object enchanted to become a Horcrux. Supposing that Voldemort had intended to create an object into a Horcrux, it is safe to assume he had it with him and would use it for Harry’s death. However, Harry nor Voldemort died so a Horcrux can not be formed. Some people argue that perhaps Lily’s death created the Horcrux, however the recount of the incident in one of the books (sorry, I forget which) showed Voldemort actually trying to push Lily out of the way to get to Harry. Forgive me if I am wrong, but Voldemort does not seem the type to “push” someone out of the way if he intended to kill them, which would show me that he did not intend to kill Lily, but her persistance forced him to. Because of that reasoning, I can not see him using her death to make the Horcrux. Either accidental or purposeful, there was no death which could have created the Horcrux. As far as we know, that is the only way a Horcrux can be made and I find it very very unlikely for Rowling to just throw in a “o by the way you don’t really need a death to do it” in the middle of the final book.

  225. sorry, I just read back into the small debate on how many Horcrux were made. Just looking at the quote and thinking about it some makes me still think that only 6 Horcrux exist. The “magical” power of 7 would have nothing to do with the Horcrux itself, Voldemort would not care how many he had, but he does care about how many pieces of his soul exist. I would imagine that is where he feels he would draw magical power, from having 7 pieces of his soul in existance which were created with important, meaningful deaths.

  226. KC,

    James Potter is the person. There is neither written, that horcrux must be created at the moment at death, nor the time interval from is specified. The information we really have were given by Slughorn and Dumbledore: Slughorn said that killing rips souls apart and wizard can encase torn portion. Dumbledore stated that Voldemort reserved horcurx creation for partially significant deaths.

    Our personal opinions on horcrux creation differ. I guess your opinion is that wizard had to create a horcrux at the moment of murder, please, correct me if I am mistaken.

    My opinion is that, once a soul is torn wizard can take his time to create a horcrux. He can wait even several years to create a horcurx he just can not have more horcruxes than murders committed. I will not deny Voldemort prefer to create horcrux at the time of death, but especially when he was young he had to be careful and he had significant death left and the relation between deaths and horcruxes is rather feeling of Voldemort than close time relation.

    Those are personal opinions; Rowling will show us in July. Suppose for a while, that a wizard had let us say half an hour to create a horcrux, that is we were both wrong, it would be no Rowling’s fault that her writing do no match our opinions.

    But perhaps I have forgotten about a crucial statement or a part of it, would you mind to explain further?

  227. Coming to the house, yes Voldemort knew he would need to kill James, but he doesn’t seem a significant enough person to use for a Horcrux. The only evidence we have of someone unimportant being used, is his final Horcrux creation, which is still only a guess by Dumbledore, and probably done out of desperation rather than meticulous planning.

    We do have differing views on how Horcrux are created. If anything has been shown of wizards and spells, is that they decrease in potentcy over time. If a Horcrux could be made at a wizard’s leisure, it just seems like a cop-out by Rowling. This process needs to be difficult for a wizard to perform and require a great deal of skill and concentration at a moment of immense emotion (killing someone for most would be very emotional). As I said before, if this were not the case, then EVERY dark wizard would have Horcrux laying around. Plenty of Death Eaters have killed people, but none (to our knowledge) possess Horcrux. This could possibly be because of their rarety, but you would imagine that if the process were simple and could be done at any point in time that Horcrux would not be so rare.

  228. Wish there was an edit function

    Having an unlimited amount of time would also defeat the purpose of using a meaningful person to create the Horcrux. Voldemort would not have needed to create his final Horcrux out of desperation, he had killed hundreds of wizards which could have been used to make his final Horcrux, however this was not the case. It is possible his final Horcrux was not made the way Dumbledore believes, but so far Rowling has given us no reason to doubt that Dumbledore has hit the nail on the head in every guess he has made concerning Voldemort. If any wizard understands Voldemort and his tendencies, it would be Dumbledore.

    I can just can not see any justification of a wizard being able to make a Horcrux any time after a murder. As you stated, the soul is ripped apart during an act of murder which is the moment when that torn portion needs to be stored into the Horcrux before it is able to rejoin as a whole. There is of course no proof yet that the soul rejoins after being torn, however if you can gather any information on how the Dementors are able to tear a soul from a body, like when they nearly killed Sirius, yet he became whole again. It is possible that he was still “torn”, but Rowling would have made some mention of him feeling odd or “unwhole” to the reader in order to reference it later.

  229. KC,

    Dumbledore is wise, very wise indeed and his judgments are really valuable source of information. However, even for him it is easy to mistake when he lacks information’s. Harry hear and seen thing that Dumbledore did not, there was discussion with Riddle, vision at the beginning of fourth year, seeing events that pressed attack on Harry etc. I guess if Dumbledore had had all the information’s, some of his judgements would have been different.

    Statement about Nagini is of that sort. Dumbledore suggest that Voldemort get the idea to turn Nagini into horcrux when Nagini killed Bryce, but Nagini did not, Harry had seen Voldemort to kill Bryce on his own. Well, I would not trust in statement like “Grass is red, so Nagini is horcrux”, Dumbledore’s statement is very similar, his preposition is false. I wonder whether you know about any evidence supporting the theory Nagini is a horcrux.

    Souls being hidden outside bodies are not unseen if fairy tales, I know about one Russia’n fairly tail and in Turkmenistant is the idea very popular. However I the have never heard about possibility to split the soul, I guess this is a brand new idea. Through Slughorn, Rowling have given us following information: Soul is supposed to remain untarnished and whole, killing rips soul apart.

    The statement is applicable to both wizards and muggles, I guess Rowling is teaching readers a lessons, very gentle way indeed, not to kill each other. What a poor lesson it would have been, if soul had rejoined after a while.

    For similar reason I think the deed of murder is important rather than related feelings, I could not imagine Rowling to claim that people who does not have strong emotion whilst killing others can kill with no harm on their souls. Can you?

    I guess dementors represent depression; this is different lesson, a person who did not manage to resist and overcame depression will be destroyed in psychically sense. I do not see any significant relation to horcruxes.

    I won’t deny I believe that every dark wizard would have been able to create a horcrux, but Slughorn said that few people would want such a life, death is preferable. Another reasons why might be horcruxes so rare is that horcurx creator spell in not known to public.

    Let us discuss point of significance to death. I think that, Voldemort recognize the death as significant when there is a relation to future horcrux object. I am quite happy with relation Myrtle-diary: Diary was designed to open chamber of secret and Voldemort ordered beast from the chamber to kill Myrtle. I am also happy with the relation among two or three Slytherien horcruxes and death of Riddle’s: Voldemort was obsessed with his parentage, he related object from wizard ancestors with murders on muggle ancestors.

    Regarding attack on Harry there are two possibilities: Voldemort either had had prepared object for Horxurc creation and death of Harry should be related or Voldemort wanted to turn Harry into horcrux.

    If Voldemort did not planned to turn Harry into horcrux that is Harry became horcrux by mistake; there is no use to look for significant death, any death will do. However if Voldemort came to turn Harry into horcrux, the death of James would be very significant: he would be father to future horcrux. That is the very relation I am looking for.

    I doubt you agree with my ideas that wizard can create horcrux at any moment after murder and the murder is significant to Voldemort when it is related to horcrux object. Anyway, those my theories go together well.

    I am not saying a single word against that you have different ideas from mine, but it is up to you to find significant deaths for diary and Slytherien horcruxes.

  230. hi

    well while reading your posts it occured to me that if killing rips the soul appart and there is no possibility of it growing back together that there must be more pieces of his soul in the man voldemort. So if he finds it rather powerfull to have a 7 split soul then he has a problem.

    What do you think about this?

    I thought that killing only damages the soul and that the damage could be use for splitting it to make a horcrux, because i also find it hard to believe that dumbledore would have a split soul. but the conversation with slughorn shows us that killing ‘rips the soul appart’
    I’m not english so i’m asking you guys
    does this always mean it’s torn in two? or could it also mean it rips it but does not totaly riped. (like cutting 10cm in a piece of paper, that makes it easier to rip it in two pieces than if its not cut at al. the paper is still whole b ut damaged)

  231. I always interpreted it as meaning that the moment of killing causes the soul to rip into two and that this moment can be taken advantage of to permanently separate the 2 halves. Do not think of the soul as a piece of paper, but rather like play-doh or silly putty, it can be divided, but also rejoined. You bring up a valid point that if killing the soul permanently separates it, then Voldemort would have more than 7 pieces of his soul which would cause him to have lost his “advantage” to having 7 pieces in existance.

  232. I think it unlikly that the soul is permanently ripped in two if you kill, but also find it hard to believe that the soul would be split and just grow back together.

    That’s why I thought it would only be damaged but not torn in two and that the horcrux’ and the horcrux spell only spell would cause the soul to damage itself further and split itself. It’s always easyer to break something if its already damaged no matter what substance it’s made of.

    But again this does not seems to fit slughorns explannation of horcruxes.
    Riddle asked how do you split your soul? and slughorn says: by an act of evil (or something of that kind) this allone seems to indicate the evil act by itself splits the soul.

    I hope rowling finds a way to make this clearer to us because i find it hard to believe she would have overlooked the fact that there would be several pieces of soul in one person.
    But I also think that killing has to damage the soul beyond repear
    What would otherwise be the lesson in this?
    Oh killing rips your soul appart but if you wait a day it grows back together so don’t worry no harm done. I find it hard to believe rowling would tell us this.

  233. Laurien,

    Regarding #252, I like very much and I am close to say: “This is exactly what I think”.

    However there is one major problem; actually you might find a week point in my theories as you posted #250. My personal opinion is that statement rip apart is very strong; it looks like soul is divided in two parts. There are a lot of people who have much better knowledge about meaning of words than me in here, some of them are real experts and love to discuss meaning of words. I would be pleased if they would join the discussion.

    It might look like I am giving my theories up, but I guess I would be premature. Let us imagine three bowls of gelatine. The gelatines in second and third bowl were cut by knife. One part of gelatine was taken away from third bowl, but regarding second bowl all the gelatine remained there. Now the second bowl is full of gelatine as well as the third bowl; two part of gelatine in second bowl are very close together. I have the idea parts of ripped soul behave somewhat similar to gelatine, they remains close together, so close they are in fact once piece, but the soul is damaged.

    I am aware of the fact I do not have proving evidence for this theory, but I still have following set of theories: wizard can wait with horcrux creation for long since the murder; the death is partially significant to Voldemort when it is related to horcrux object and though the soul is ripped apart it is still one piece if there is no horcrux creation. I will happily give up this set of theories I any of the theories will be disproved either by statement from Harry Potter series or one made by Rowling. For now, I do not have reason to do so.

  234. I don’t know why people think that Harry is a horcrux. Voldemort went to kill Harry, why would he make him a horcrux? Also, Voldemort is arguably one of the most powerful and intelligent wizards it is doubtful that he could perform the act of creating a horcrux without meaning to. Also, Dumbledore says that scars can be very useful in the fist book, so I highly doubt that Harry or his scar is a horcrux and will laugh at everyone who thinks that either is a horcrux when the 7th book comes out.

  235. I must stop coming here because i will be very dissapointed if all of you were right in your theories and the book held no big surprise

  236. john,

    i also don’t believe harry is a horcrux
    it just lookes like the thing many would think but has absolutely no chance of being true
    if harry would turn out to be a horcrux or even his scar i would find it very dissapointing

    i think we can take dumbledore on his words for what he said about the horcruxes

    i think Harry wil find out more about horcruxes at the exactg same place or from the same person as LV did and if that’s a place he will find a clue there about or maybe find a horcrux

  237. i wondered

    Harry and his friends asked the room of requirement a place to lurn defence against the dark arts. Hermione asked thibgs like books and stuff
    The rook opened for them and there were books about DADA inthere

    maybe they can go to the ROR and ask for a place to learn about horcruxes

    what do you guys thing about that?

    (it was just a thought, i don’t think they will actually do that cause it seams to simple, the idea of the chamber of secrets having more secrets i like better)

  238. I’m not really sure that they will return to Hogwarts in the final book, at least not during the plot portion of the book. I think just like any good detective book, the book will begin where the story started, at Harry’s home, Godric Hollows, I also believe this is where the story will end (sort of prophetic that it should all end where it began with a final duel between the grown up-sort of- Harry, and Voldemort).

  239. Laurien,

    I like yours posting very much, though often I do not share your ideas. I am afraid I am behind with my answers. I promise I will explain to you why I believe Harry is a horcrux and summarize evidence against the case that ring was a horcrux when Voldemort asked Slughorn about horcruxes.

    In a meantime let us talk about room of requirement. I absolutely believe room of requirement is going to play significant role, Voldmemort had two opportunities to hide a horcrux there. First opportunity occurred when Voldemort got a cup. He resigned a day after form his post but he has some time to get through Vanishing cabinets into Room of Requirement. The second opportunity arises when Voldemort visited Dumbledore, #136 deals with the topic very well.

    Harry is going to Bill’s wedding and No one knows what will happen there, in a certain circumstances visit to Godric’s Hollow could be postpone.

    Laurien, I am very interested in your statement: “learn about horcruxes”, though I am not quite sure what are you up to. Perhaps it the trio could learn how to destroy one? I wonder if you could post more to the point.

    Meanwhile, I will try to find some more clues about the room or hidden horcrux, most likely tiara.

  240. I speculate that to destroy a horcrux, Harry will have to delve into the grey and dark arts. His power will have to be increased if he wants to battle countless Death eaters and many of Voldemort’s defences.

  241. No dark arts for Harry. I think he’ll be using a great deal of ‘old magic’. That’s where he’ll excel and where VM is powerless.

  242. OK, here are some of the ways Voldemort could go down:

    Harry destroys the remaining Horcruxes. Meets Voldemort. Voldemort tries to take him out. Ron steps in front of him. Voldemort’s Aveda Kadavra bounces back on him because of the Old Magic effect. Since there are no Horcruxes left, it annihilates him. Ron dies.

    Or. Harry destroys the remaining Horcruxes. Voldemort tries to take him – and Ron and Hermione who are standing beside him – out with the AK. Snape steps in front, to shield them with his body. AK bounces back because of the Old Magic thing. Voldemort is destroyed. With his last breath Snape tells Harry how much he loved his mother, etc, etc.

    Either way, someone takes the hit meant for Harry and because it’s done out of love, and because there are no Horcruxes left, Voldemort ends up destroying himself.

    Completely agree with Pip and Snape: no Unforgivables for Harry.

    You can also see which two characters I think won’t survive DH.


  243. well pip,

    im not too sure. I’ve found it very interesting that he has used dark magic so succesfully in the past and shown only minimal remorse. Now, don’t get me wrong, I know Harry is a good man and he would’nt think of switching sides, but I think power attracts him. Not as much as any Death Eater, but to a degree it does. Why else would the sorting hat even think of placing Harry in Slytherin.

    Of course, it does’nt even have to be Dark magic. I’ve noticed that the amount of power a wizard has does’nt have to be dark or light but it has to do with the command and willpower a wizard has over his or her instrument of power. Some wizards are very powerful and some are weak, but that has nothing to do with the spells they know.

  244. I respect your opinion, Boggart, and, yes, Harry has tried a few spells of dark magic, but he did have regrets. Remember sectumsempra on Draco? Harry was horrified at it’s effect–the gushing blood from the slashed wound.

    No, his mother’s example is what Harry must follow. He’d be no better than a DE or VM himself if he uses dark magic. It would be like being drawn to ‘the dark side’ in Star Wars if he uses it. He MUST be above it.

    DD was the most powerful wizard of his day, and I’m certain he did not use unforgivables. There are other spells mentioned in OOP used the the DA.

  245. I am prepared to agree with you pip even though I’m not sure the magic is exactly dark if there is no curse, just total control of the power a wizard enjoys.

  246. Reyhan, that isn’t how the “old magic” works. A person may sacrifice themself in order to save another in which case the “love” would protect the other person, not the sacrificial one. If a friend did step in front of the AK curse, then Voldemort would be smart enough to not use it again against Harry, he’d find some other method to kill him. And if Snape gets hit by an AK curse, he won’t be having any “last breaths” to speak of anything. Although, I do believe Snape secretly was in love with Lily.

    I think the only instance that an Unforgivable curse would be used by Harry, is the AK curse against Voldemort or possibly Snape. The only time Harry has tried to use evil magic (knowing at the time of what would happen) is against Snape and Voldemort.

  247. I’m relatively certain in Book 7 that Harry will find another way to destroy Voldemort, and NOT with the AK or any other curse. That will be one of the surprises JKR has in store for us–how VM’s life ends.

    Another surprise will be how Snape is involved in the above.

    I truly believe there will be NO unforgivables for Harry. When Snape said that to Harry I think it was a clue of what’s ahead.

  248. martin,

    i will show you wath i mean by ‘learning about horcrues’
    (i’m sorry for answering so late but i’m in my exams so i do not always find the time to post here)

    i think harry wille have to learn what horcruxes are all about just for the same reason we want to learn about them. if he doesnt know things like how there made, how mutch time there can be between the murder and the making of the horcrux,it will be almost imposible to find all of them. He will need the information in order to find them and ofcource to know how to destroy them.

    I also thought at first no unforgivables fo Harry, i didnt think he is ‘evil’ enough to do voldemort much harm with them (like bellatrix said: you really have to want to make your victem suffre)But then off cource Harry really wants to bring voldemort to harm and that his hatred of LV could realy do some damage, so i don’t know about that one.
    i don’t think we can go round the AK curse, he’ll need that one to destroy voldemort.
    But then again, what snape said could indeed be a clue of whats ahaid.

  249. Laurien,

    Exams are definitely more important than a chat; I hope you will pass all the exams. Let me know. Meanwhile I have something more to discuss.

    Once I proposed Voldemort got a relic from Grinewald and hid it at the room of requirement. Apparently there is no evidence witch support that case. When I think about Setcusemptra chapter now, the entire scene looks like the very place where Voldermort would hide Rawlenclaw relic, most likely tiara. We can discuss the point further.

    I not sure I quite agree with your idea that Harry need to know everything about horcrux creation to destroy horcruxes. Anyway, I think he will learn much more in the room, perhaps not just the way of horcrux destruction but, colour of horcrux creation spell and something more.

    There is something against our case: Harry would have to visit the room at the beginning of horcrux hunt, be obviously he has different planes: He is going to Dursleys, Bill’s wedding and Godric Hollow.

    Mrs. Weasly stated grand-auntie Muriel could borrow Fleur goblin made tiara. Suppose Muriel find out tiara is missing. Harry is very flexible person; he would most likely go for the horcrux.

    Still there are some significant arguments against the case. Can this be Muriel would not check tiara for so long? I guess it is possible, relic of Hogwarts founder is very valuable, H. Smith kept the cup and locket hidden from family members. There is another difficulty: Molly’s wedding take place long after Voldemort visited Dumbledore. I think I have an explanation, but I beg you and all the girls who are interested in the case to evaluate following point: Molly mentioned tiara would go well with Fleur’s hair, but the very same tiara might not have gone well with Molly’s red hair. There was no reason to check shelter of tiara on Molly’s wedding.

  250. hellow,
    exams are deffinitly more important but this chat gets my mind of the work so it’s great to visit it.

    The tiara of molly could also just be a hint that there is an other tiara thats important

    i also think the place where harry hides his potions book is perfect setting for a hiding place for a horcrux
    but i doubt that harry would just be able to pick up the tiara and take it with him
    so maybe there is another horcrux than the tiara in the room but better protected

  251. There can be no unforgiveables or anything involving a wand at all in the final battle becauise as we learned in Goblit of Fire their wands dont work against each other.

  252. That’s because of the similarity of the two wands. And a good point, Dave.

    We’ve chatted about the alternatives to the unforgivables several places on this website.

  253. personally i think this is where i see the Gryffindors sword comming into play. I mean how better to kill the heir of Slytherin then with the sword of his enemy Gryffindor by the Heir of Gryffindor

  254. I think he learns some new spell of old magic and uses that. I know that their wands can’t fight each other but I think they figure out a way around it, JK is too creative to use the same fight scene twice, but if Fawkes comes in and drops the sorting hat and Harry pulls out the sword again I will be very upset.

  255. Is Harry the heir of Gryffindor? I know he asked to be put in Gryffindor house, and that his dad was in Gryffindor, but is he biologically the heir of Godric Gryffindor?

  256. That is an interesting point about the wands, I see a couple alternatives to this.

    Since the wands do not work against each other, then either someone else must kill Voldemort (Snape, Wormtail, Ron, Neville, etc), or Harry does the deed after someone else has disarmed Voldemort. Then again it is also possible that Voldemort kills someone or is distracted by someone and in that moment, Harry is able to curse him. The wands will only not fight each other, which I believe means the curses must be simultaneously used. Since the only evidence we have of Priori Incantetam involves 2 spells being used at the same time, I think it is safe to accept that as being fact.

  257. We dont know for sure that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor, but alot of people ive talked to agree that he must be due to the revalence that the Potters and James specifically lived in Godric’s Hollow, which means Gryffindor. Plus, it would make sense that since the two were the ones who fought when Hogwarts was founded that with Voldemort being the heir of Slytherin, so should Harry be the heir of Gryffindor. Then again I could be completely wrong in that assumption.

  258. Here is a quote from a 2005 interview with JKR about that:

    “MA: What about Harry’s family — his grandparents — were they killed?

    JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily’s parents, normal Muggle death. James’s parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he’s-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That’s as far as it goes. There’s nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them.

    MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor [theories], as well.

    JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well – yeah.

    MA: Another one bites the dust.”

    I’m not sure how to interpret JKR’s agreement with MA: she could either be agreeing that Harry is not the heir of Gryffindor, or she could be agreeing that the information she’s given doesn’t support the thoery. She’s extremely evasive when she wants to be, I find.

  259. i dont really buy into that all that much. Like you said she has a way of being very literal in her translations which usually throws people off what is actually going to happen in the story. With all the clues, Godrics Hollow, the sword, the invisibility cloak, what the sorting hat told him, and voldemort being the heir of slytherin, with the whole back story that Gryffindor and Slytherin were always rivals, it only makes sense that Harry would be the heir of Gryffindor. Otherwise all that information just seems kind of superfluous. ( so happy i got to use that word, its the word of the day)

  260. Reyhan, I’ve read and wondered about that quote before. I don’t know why MA said that shuts down the Heir of Gryffindor theories – in my view, the fact that James’parents were elderly and died from a wizarding illness has nothing to do with whether or not one (or both) of them was descended from Godric Gryffindor. I think JKR’s answer was a way of ending that topic before anything else was asked about it. I would have loved it if MA had asked her pointblank if Harry were the Heir of Gryffindor. Sometimes she answers that type of question (No, Snape was not under the invisibility cloak the night the Potters were killed; No, Aunt Petunia is not a squib, she’s a regular Muggle) and sometimes she doesn’t, saying something like “I wish I could answer that, but I can’t.” Which means she’d be giving something important away.

    Anyway, I agree with you that we can’t really know what she meant by her answer. I’m inclined to think she was neither confirming nor denying, which means it’s still a plausible theory. I think.

  261. If memory serves me correctly, in the Sorting Hat’s song in one of the books, he mentions that Slytherin and Gryffindor were actually best of friends when the school was originally opened, but that they had a falling out when it came down to who should be accepted into the school to learn. Obviously Harry and Voldemort have never been on friendly terms in anyway and considering how much Rowling loves to leave little hints here and there to reference later in other books, I think there would have been some relation between the two characters if this truely was meant to come down to a ‘Heir of Slytherin’ versus ‘Heir of Gryffindor’. I just don’t see Harry being the heir of Gryffindor.

    However, as stated above, I don’t think Rowling’s answer to MA as being any denial that he isn’t a possible heir, but keep in mind that there were 2 characters which could have fulfilled the prophecy, Neville and Harry, and that fate/chance/bad luck happened to turn out that Harry was the one chosen by Voldemort to fulfill that prophecy. I think there is as much evidence in the demeanor of Neville to say that he is the heir to Gryffindor than there is in Harry. The sorting hat placed Neville in Gryffindor almost immediately, he is fiercely loyal and has shown he will do anything for his friends without regard to himself, and despite his clumsiness and lack of memory, when the times get tough, he’s shown an aptitude for dedication and concentration.

    Not sure, just my thoughts.

  262. hey,
    what if Harry could just kill voldemort with the sword of gryffindor?

    You could argue that wizards can only be killed by AK curce or can’t die from wounds because they are stronger than muggles and magic can heal the most ugly wounds.
    But there there must be something special about the sword.
    If wizards cant be killed with swords then i believe there is one sword that is able to kill a wizard: The sword of gryffindor.
    It has to have the power to do damage, why else would gryffindor, this brave wizard, have a sword? It can’t be just for decoration or because it symbolises his bravery. It’s bound to have power, power that will help harry destroy LV.

    Maybe the sword reflects spels or something of that kind, so that if LV fires the AK curce at harry he lets it bounce back on the sword. This also would mean no unforgivebles for harry.

    The fact that the sword is on the cover of the 7th book makes it certain that its going to be very significant.

    (i think travis would extremely like it when this would happen … talk about chosing the right name for a website)

  263. KC,

    I took a long time to sort Neville. Otherwise I would not say a single word against you last post.

    Laurien,

    Just five minutes before I read last set of post funny idea struck me: Not only have I thought Voldemort cut be killed by sword of Gryffindor but also I have thought Travis Prinzi might like it. I wonder how this can be. Perhaps a charm? Are you sure you are muggle born?

    I do not argue wizard can be killed only with AK, not at all, there are other ways how to kill a wizard: only a finger of Pettigrew was found but everyone think he was death although this is not effect of AK; the curse that hit Hermione in OoP would kill her if she did not use Silencio charm; Sirius Black was killed by flash of red light; Sectumsemptra looks like curse than can cause death as well.

    I think the room of requirement is the right place to hide something from Ravenclaw. The room looks like her creation; smart and creative students, which Ravenclaw liked the most, can hardly find better place to realize their experiments. I think Voldemort found the idea to hide relic from Ravenclaw in such a room very fascinating. There is something noticeable in Voldemort behavior: he was hiding horcruxes in places where he had done some evil deed. I guess Murder of Myrtle makes Hogwarts proper place.

    What is the idea and possible weakness of horcrux protection? People are able to open the room only when they really need something. Harry wanted room to become what it became for Draco but he failed. Voldemort needed a status of room where he hide and check horcrux with ease but those who were looking for horcrux would not be able to do so. Did such a status exist? I believe it did. Let us imagine Voldemort carrying horcrux and going into Dumbledor’s office, he just needed a place to hide a horcrux and so he did. Why has the best world wizard never overcome the protection? He has never needed to hide something. Same goes for any responsible member of staff. The major problem is students could get the horcrux. But wait a second: Dumbledore told Harry, Voldemort underestimated youth. Obviously Voldemort did not manage to imagine there ever would be a student hunting his horcruxes.

    Last thing I would like to mention is that house of Ravenclaw is related to air. Slytherin is related to water and there was much liquids in the cave where was hidden Slytherien horcrux stuff. It was very difficult to overcome all the protection. However among all elements air gives the weakest protection. Still I do not think Voldemort would have given up the idea to have Rawenclaw relic surrounded by air. Since the room itself gives strong protection, it is not that bad, to hide a relic in a cupboard. The only reason why such a protection looks very week is that Harry needed to hide his book.

  264. Just a quick note,

    Martin:
    A flash of red light did not kill Sirius, that was merely the Stunning Spell which pushed him into the archway and through the curtain. More than likely the curtain is the doorway to death, or something near to it.

  265. Hey every one…its me again…..
    jus a thought….is it possible that behind the veil..where sirius fell to his death…could that be the ” deathly hallows “….???and some how harry has to go there….??…maybe there is anotehr way there…???

  266. so i may have missed something, but what does it matter if harry is half blood. That just makes him even more like voldemort

  267. Here’s my latest thinking about the Horcruxes:

    Diary: destroyed

    Ring: relic of Gryffindor: de-Horcruxed

    Locket: relic of Syltherin: if Mundungus stole it, who knows? but if he didn’t then it’s either in the Black family vault or more likely Kreacher has it. Don’t know if it’s been de-Horcruxed.

    Cup: relic of Hufflepuff: Mundungus, again? he couldn’t have taken it to Azkaban, so where is it? still an active Horcrux.

    Tiara: relic of Ravenclaw: Great Aunt Muriel’s tiara which Fleur will wear at the wedding?; still an active Horcrux

    Nagini: sentimental value to Voldemort; active Horcrux

    Suspect that DEs will crash that wedding and that Charlie is going to turn into a dragon.

    BTW, how do you de-Horcrux a Horcrux? I don’t like the theory that Harry’s blood can do it. I mean, why Harry’s blood? Is it because he has some essence of Voldemort, or Lily Evans or Gryffindor? But here’s a cheering thought: if Harry’s blood does turn out to have Horcruxcidal properties, then maybe Voldemort’s blood can do the same thing, since he was reconsituted with it.

  268. Did I just read that right, you think Charlie will turn into a dragon!?!?!!?!? Rowling is a family woman, I don’t think she tokes up while writing these stories. I do think an attack at the wedding is a possibility, though probably a bad one considering the entire Order will be there, along with Harry, and various other wizards and witches. Just wouldn’t seem like a smart party to crash in on. I could see the Death Eater’s attacking some place else during the wedding, since everyone will be there.

    It will be interesting to see how Harry will destroy the Horcrux, obviously it requires strong magic otherwise Dumbledore wouldn’t have been injured in his destroying the ring, I like the idea of it being his blood. This is a possibility, because all of the Horcrux *should* have been made prior to Voldemort’s return and so those pieces of his soul which reside in the Horcrux will still be unable to stand the touch of Harry. Either way, we’ll all know in less than a month.

  269. Haha,
    Bill is Puff the magic dragon.

    That’ll be a gift for Laura Mallory.

    Think of the milage she could get from that!

    Matthew

  270. But Reyhan – if the Peverell ring was a relic of Gryffindor’s, wouldn’t Dumbledore have known that? He certainly had a number of years to research that ring.

    There’s more to that ring, but I don’t believe it’s related to Gryffindor.

  271. Did I forget to say that I believe Charlie is an animagus?

    Mrs. W., logically, what you say is true. DD should have known if the Peverell ring was a Gryffindor relic. He is the keeper of the sword, after all, and seems to have some Gryffindor street-cred, even if he’s not the Heir.

    However, as I mentioned on the latest Around the Common Room post/thread, book 7 is a time to be winding the plot up, not spinning new threads. So the owner of the ring, the “he” Morfin refers to (assuming he’s not merely hallucinating or confused about his father’s death or that “he” isn’t actually Marvolo returning as an Inferi (my second favorite theory)), “he” has to be someone who’s already been mentioned, referenced, or even, encountered. Also, although I had given up on my original theory that “Hallows” referred to the founders of Hogwarts – believing instead that it referred to the date of the fatal encounter, Oct 31st, to which all things must return – I’m gradually returning to that theory. I think the US cover shows us Harry beyond the veil, with dead people surrounding him, and he is looking upwards, gesturing towards or greeting – Fawkes. Don’t know what Voldemort is doing there – not quite his thing, being dead, is it?

    Anyways for these less than compelling reasons and arguments, I’m favouring the theory that the owner of the Peverell ring referenced by the hapless Morfin is a founder. Probably GG himself.

    I could be wrong, of course.

    And yes, you’re quite right. It doesn’t look at all like we’re all done theorizing.

  272. There are some people who believe the ring was a horcrux when Voldemort asked Slughorn about horcruxes. The theory is very popular among those who believe that a wizard is able to create a horcrux in a moment of death or soon after the death. I have something against the case.

    Voldemort did not manage to control himself completely. Although he was extremely brilliant actor when he found out he could be immortal, he was not able to control himself anymore and his greed was obvious. If he had just wanted to make sure he would not have look like that.

    The ring has engraved Peverell coat, therefore it was easy recognizable. At least one of ministry officers knew about the ring and ministry can put two and two together. I would be dangerous to Voldemort to wear the ring daily; I can not imagine Voldemort on transfiguration lesson with such a ring, Dumbledore would have noticed. Despite those facts Voldemort was wearing the ring whilst chanting with Slughorn. Why was this so?

    Voldemort knew horcruxes are powerful and most likely very dark stuff, though he did not know the exact use. However he wanted to learn horcrux creation spell so he had to have suitable object on hand. For the very reason he take the ring with him.

  273. If Nagini is a horcrux bt still a living creature wouldnt she eventually die??? So much for voldemorts desire for immortality!!!

  274. Remember that he has, or had, 5 others that would keep him alive. And when Nagini died the remains might still be a horcrux- we don’t know enough about horcrux magic. He could make another if she died and didn’t remai a horcrux. He’s interested in keeping 7 parts to his soul.

    Matthew

  275. I don’t really like to give much credit to Nagini being a Horcrux, Voldemort has just been too risky with that snake. Sending it into the Ministry of Magic, as well as out to spy on people, seems far too blatant for it to be housing a portion of his soul. I can’t imagine Voldemort being so non-chalant about a Horcrux, with the extent of protection he placed on the locket, I think it would be safe to assume that all of his Horcrux are fairly well guarded or protected.

  276. Weasly are suspected to be related to Ravenclaw through Molly. Perhaps Molly’s relatives had owned something from Ravenclaw which became a horcrux. It might have been tiara, but we need something more: suspiosos death in the family. There is such a death, Ron´s uncle Bilius died soon after he saw Grim. I must confess I do not have a clue to who’s brother Bilius was: Molly’s, Arthur’s or perhaps neither of them?

    Ginny and Ron refers to Muriel as an auntie. In fact she is not. Mr. Weasly has mentioned Muriel was a grand-auntie. Since Ron’s references about family members are somewhat misleading, Bilius might be even grand-uncle to Ron. Anyway, now I think Bilus death was related to creation of a horcrux, the one which belonged to Rawenclaw once.

    KC,

    I agree Nagini is not a horcrux. Something in your post stroked me; it was your note about protection. Could post something more ideas, how Voldemort protects his horcruxes? I am really interested.

  277. Well Martin, of what we know about Horcrux so far, we have the diary of Tom Riddle which had very little protection, although it was admitted that its purpose was to be used as more than just a Horcrux, it was meant as another way to open the Chamber of Secrets at Hogwarts. However, the other Horcrux, the Locket was placed under extreme magical protection. It was essentially guarded as well as any object can be guarded with only using magic. Similarly, the ring was well protected as it almost killed Dumbledore to which he admits in HBP “had it not been for my protigious skill, and Snape’s quick action” he would have died. I imagine at least 2 of the remaining Horcrux must be under similar protections.

  278. Parts of Lord Voldemort’s Soul:

    1. Lord Voldemort
    2. Diary
    3. Ring
    4. Locket
    5. Nagini
    6. Cup? (im not sure about this one)
    7. Harry Potter

  279. Harry does not house a portion of Lord Voldemort’s soul. As stated by Dumbledore, Voldemort could not even stand to possess Harry because of the Love he is capable of feeling. If a portion of his soul was housed in Harry, then the soul would have died long ago. Also, since Dumbledore thinks Nagini is a Horcrux because of the extreme amount of power Voldemort has over the snake (even for a Parseltongue), this would lead us to believe that any sentient being which houses a portion of Voldemort’s soul would behave similarlyand that Voldemort would be able to easily control it.

  280. I’m sorry KC, I guess i wasn’t clear enough. Harry’s SCAR is the horcrux. This explains a lot because it is nowhere near Harry’s heart (where the love is) and is close to the brain (explaining the mental connection).

    With luv to all

    An old man (who is now cranky)

  281. I have placed my guesses about horcruxes on Sybilcast. Now I only hope the chair on which portrait of headmaster Fortescue is sitting and the chair in Riddle’s house are not the same.

  282. Sorry cranky old man :-) But I do not think Harry or his scar could ever possibly be a Horcrux. I have spoken about this above, but I’ll make a quick note of it again. We may not know much about Horcrux, but we know that it does involve an incantation (as stated by Slughorn in HBP). Since it must occur after a death, then either Voldemort meant to make Harry into a Horcrux with the death of James Potter, and it was the incantation to make him into a Horcrux which backfired and nearly killed LV. However, we’ve been told on numerous occassions that the curse which Harry survived was the AK curse. We can fairly safely assume that LV is the most knowledgeable wizard to have ever lived when concerning the creation of a Horcrux as well as the procedure in making one, this makes me believe that there is no way he could just accidentally create a Horcrux without an incantation.

    As far as that other thread you posted, I don’t see where they are getting Harry as the Heir of Gryffindor from, I suppose there could be some merit that James Potter is the long long long ancestor of Gryffindor, but I find it highly unlikely that LV would know this information. All of the family tree research LV did to find his own origins came from while he was still an unwanted man, by the time he would have received the half-prophecy there is no way he could have gained access to historical documents which would trace Gryffindor’s ancestry. Not to mention, that it is likely Dumbledore would have known Harry’s ancestry seeing as he has also been Headmaster when James was at school. If he had been the descendant, I would bet that Dumbledore would have shared that information with him during one of the private lessons in HBP as it is a fairly important and empowering bit of information for Harry to have.

    All in all, Harry or his scar being a Horcrux is just too highly illogical for me, and thus far JKR has not made any actions which were not entirely justified and logical to the previous story plots.

    My guesses that the Horcrux would have to be:
    Diary, Ring, Locket, Cup, Nagini (though I’m not even certain of that one, I think this is one of Dumbledore’s “really important mistakes”), and the tiara that will be used in Bill and Fleur’s wedding. An alternate Horcrux could possibly be a wand which may have belonged to Ravenclaw, I think this becuase Ollivander’s shop was raided/abandoned suddenly during HBP with no further explanation. This leads me to think that JKR was trying to introduce an important story point for the final book without making it seem so important.

  283. I do not agree with KC
    Yes, and he doesn’t agree with me.
    We will not fight
    there will be no plight
    Let us see how Deathly Hallows will be!

  284. Winner! I also enjoyed the book.

    I have a few questions though,
    How did the elder wand come to be Draco Malfoy’s?
    And how did Harry not die, but the part of Voldemort’s soul did?

  285. Heh, well in my defense, Harry was not a Horcrux, the portion of the soul had merely clung to him (for a Horcrux, there must be an incantation). Anyways, the power of the Elder Wand is removing the wand from the previous owner’s possession. Malfoy was the one who used the Expelliarmus curse on Dumbledore, Snape merely killed Dumbledore after he had been ‘de-wanded’. So the Elder Wand became Malfoy’s by right, and when Voldemort took the wand from Dumbledore’s tomb, he was not actually taking it from the rightful owner, so it did not answer to him. Hope that answers the question.

  286. Phew!!! What a ride! I am in awe both of JKR for her storytelling and you all for your often eerie insights given the timeline of various comments. As a mom and English major, I can confidently declare this series, and especially the final three books (I started reading #5 on Saturday morning and finished #7 at 7am Monday), some of the most elaborate, intricate, and engaging stories of the modern era. What a pleasure! This series appeals to all ages. I must say, by the end of five, or certainly by the middle of 6, I was certain I was reading what would become a tragedy of heroic proportions. By the end of #7 I was reminded of a movie I recently saw, Stranger Than Fiction. Emma Thompson’s character says that when a character is willing to walk into his own death with resoluteness and determination (paraphrase), isn’t that the kind of person you would want to keep alive?

    Salutations to all you who have “stuck with Harry until the very end” !!!

  287. I think that harry was not killed because of the elder wand in the forest he was and not LV the rightfull owner of it.
    what do you think?

  288. Laurien,

    I have not seen you for ages, have you passed your exams?

    Regarding the attack I think Voldemort had bonded Harry to live when he had used Harry’s blood. However Harry as a master of death had a choise: he could die.

  289. sorry- just passing by- But what happened to real science?
    Is this how we expend our intelligence now?

    I get the entertainmane value, but why don’t you brainiacs stop reading these books and go cure cancer or develop some kind of green energy or something.
    :)

  290. what is a horcrux for real?
    don’t tell me you don’t know, as I won’t believe you

    On the contrary, I believe that Malfoy was the rightful owner of the elder wand, as Sneip had taken the unbreakable vow, to complete the mission if Malfoy failed

    But your pointer view is right as well

  291. I read the 7th book and here is the list of 8 NOT 7
    1) Riddle’s diary
    2) Marvolo’s ring
    3) Hufflepuff’s cups
    4) Slytherin’s locket
    5) Ravenclaw’s diadem
    6) Harry himself (Voldemort’s bit of soul attached its self to Harry’s soul)
    7) Nagini
    8) Voldemort himself

    ****so there were actually eight if you want to get extremely technical****

  292. Well actually, Voldemort isn’t a horcrux. Nor was it his plan to have himself be a horcrux. His plan was to magically support his existence by creating 7. Obviously, Voldemort didn’t create himself.

    Thanks for the idea, though.

  293. No, Voldemort was not technically a horcrux but a part of his soul was kept inside him. His soul was split into eight pieces. However, the word horcrux comes from the French “dehors” meaning outside and “crux” meaning essence, which would mean Voldemort is not a horcrux.

  294. A little late to the party but it seems everyone is being a bit too literal and overly focused on the “apparent” horcrux creation timeline. Harry was never intended to be a horcrux – that event was a SNAFU of epic proportion. Voldy wasn’t able to do the proper spell, hence “a portion of Voldemort latched on to the only living thing available…Harry.” The 7th horcrux was quite likely going to be the sword of Gryffindor. That’s why it was given to Bellatrix (by Snape,; who made sure it was a copy!) for safe keeping – Voldy wasn’t done making all his intendeds (horcruxes.)

  295. I was driving through Liverpool the other day when I passed a funeral parlour with a sign saying “Funeral packages 2% off.” For a moment I thought “Great, now I know what to get my grandparents for their anniversary this month.” My next thought was “Do you think Tom Riddle ever saw one of those signs and thought ‘I don’t want one of those’?”

    If so, his next train of thought must have been as so:

    “Right. How do I stop myself from dying? Wait! Here’s an idea! I’ll tear my soul into six pieces by killing people with dark magic, then I’ll seal those torn off pieces of my soul into a snake, a book, a cup, a tiara, a locket and a ring and then I’ll be immortal! And here’s the best part of this plan, the only thing that will be able to destroy these objects (wait for it) is venom from a giant snake. What could possibly go wrong?”

    Hmm. Can’t see it working.

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