The conversation on Twilight over at HogPro has gotten interesting. When comment approval goes through, you’ll find a few exasperated comments by me, wondering if I’ve been possessed by a Harold Bloom spirit.
Negative reviews began rolling in after John’s initial post, but a new challenge and then further suggestions by Mr. Granger (the latter was in response to my review) that the series might have some literary merit have led to a 100% turnaround on the part of some, and at least a reconsidering on the part of others.
Also, Pat has put together a list and summaries of links discussing whether or not Mormonism finds expression in Twilight.
Thoughts? Any other Twilight fans or opponents out there who want to weigh in?
Tom on 
Arabella Figg on 
Red Rocker on 
Travis Prinzi on 
Joivre on 
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{ 26 comments… read them below or add one }
Well, reading both conversations, at Hogpro’s & here, people have made some good arguments for giving Twilight but more especially the further novels in the series a chance & perhaps even finding something of depth in them. However, I still don’t feel a great desire to read them & so perhaps won’t. We’ll see once I get my ebook editions of them.
Travis, thanks for getting good conversation going! The only reason I haven’t posted here is that I got caught up at HogPro and it just takes me too long to comment … was up till 5 AM one morning writing up the alchemy thoughts.
I do think the books have some literary merit, but even more importantly I think they have some value as a shared text for women (especially, as Mrs. Figg pointed out on HogPro, ‘girls and their moms and grandmas’—women within a family.) About this last, I feel that the books allow for the familial and domestic aspect of women much more than the average piece of modern entertainment does. While still championing the idea that ‘men and women should save each other equally’ (I agree, with reservations—I think men and women tend to save each other differently), the books allow for marriage and motherhood as a sincere goal and a reasonable life choice and focus for a woman. I get really tired of the opposite message being thrown at me all the time, so when I find it in a book I really enjoy it; even when, as in Twilight, I think it’s imperfectly handled (too Mormon and still not strong enough for me).
Shared texts for women only rarely interest men, however. I almost have to come here to find guys who like Jane Austen.
But as for the good art/bad art question, I think they’re in the middle, possibly above mediocre. I don’t think they’re bad art on a level with Titanic and harlequins (of course, I don’t read harlequins, so I’m badmouthing what I don’t know … 
) And they’re not Dostoyevsky or Austen. I’m still trying to figure out where I think they fall in comparison with someone like Rowling, whose work I do consider great art. Short, certainly … it’s more a question of how short. My current answer is something like “Not nearly as short as I thought on my first read; maybe not so very short at all, but I’m not through judging yet”. After all, Twilight has kept me coming back and re-reading, thinking about it, over and over, in the past two months, leaving me with mixed feelings—but strong feelings. No ordinary paperback romance novel has ever done that.
Hi Travis,
Just taking a look at your website after seeing it on your Plurk profile…
I’ve read Twilight, stubbornly really – I couldn’t really see what the point in it was, I loved Harry Potter too much, Twilight seemed to be a sort of corny, poor, chick book and the whole vampire part of it? Oh dear. Taking the magic in HP to a whole (bad) new level.
All of my friends (mainly girls) told me I was mad, and told me I should read it. Months and months after being badgered into reading it, I finally said, enough is enough – I’ll read it, just to prove it’s rubbish and not nearly as good as Harry Potter.
Well, I bought the first book in the series and it took me a few days to read the first chapter. To give this value… I’m an avid reader, and I often read up to a book a day (roughly 400 pages or so).
Eventually I managed to get a few more chapters into the first book and eventually ate some humble pie…………. it wasn’t so bad, in fact, I rather enjoyed reading it, there was something rather special about the relationship between Bella and Edward. It was truly romantic and being a girl (typical me), I loved it.
I quickly bought the 2nd and 3rd (the 4th had yet to be released), although I read these two much faster, I’d have to say, out of all the books, the first was by far the best. I personally didn’t like the 2nd or 3rd plots, I didn’t feel they were strong enough and that SM was blindly writing, hoping to fill black pages.
Then I read the 4th – awful. I read it because I wanted to know the ending, I get rather “attached” to a plot, so even if following books in the series aren’t as good as the original, I can’t help myself.
My thoughts on the whole series is, the first was fantastic, I loved it. But the author shouldn’t have written the other books. They almost ruined the story for me.
If I had to compare SM to JK, I’d say JK is a far better author, she has a quality I can’t put my finger on. There’s always a deeper meaning (these are my own opinions, mind) and I love digging deep and discovering them. With Twilight however, it was just a bit shallow and fishing for a story, so to speak.
Oh gee, I’ve written a lot!
LibraryLily, glad you’ve dropped by! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m certain there’s an extent to which my own personal taste is playing into my dislike of the series. So far, responses to my question, “Do the books get less annoying because Bella gets less annoying” have been divided. Some think they get worse, others, better. Eventually, I’m going to have to find out for myself. I guess I’ll see then whether Twilight has any lasting draw for me.
Olivia, you’re more than welcome to “write a lot” here! Thanks for stopping by (and for linking your site…I think I’m in a need of a new Plurk layout in the near future!).
I think you’re the first person I’ve read who said that on the whole, the books got worse, which makes your perspective a new one for me (that’s a good thing, as I’m trying to gather as many diverse opinions as I can). Some, as I said above, think Bella got more annoying – at least in the second book. But most have assured me I should keep reading, because they’ll get better. I wasn’t a big fan of the writing style of the first book, particularly because Bella kept repeating the same, tired phrases over and over again, and because it seemed to me to lack any depth (or even a decent plot), which you mention is part and parcel of the overall series, especially in comparison to Rowling.
Thanks again for your thoughts!
Travis,
I have looked over the comments over at HogPro – and wanted to make a few of comments.
1. My reaction to the book is not elitist – the books are badly written.
2. These books are dangerous (IMO) because of the messages that they give young girls about what love is – and when you are ready for love. I do not want my daughter to get the message that a boy who tells her that he is bad for her is someone she should consider seeing. Or, to be so consumed by that relationship that she stops seeing her friends, or that she considers killing herself when they breakup.
3. Bella has a weird fear of being a year of two older than Edward and is an awful rush to consummate the relationship – yet does not want to marry and only agrees to marry so Edward with agree to consummate.
4. Bella is not a good role model. She is whiney, has low self-esteem and blames herself for everything.
5. My biggest gripe with the series (book 3, I think) – Jacob forces himself on Bella (she allows him to kiss her after he threatens to kill himself) and then decides she is in love with him also.
6. I regret allowing my daughter to read the first 3 but have found that most of the girls in her class have read them and have passed them around – so it probably would have happened anyway.
7. I am glad I read them and was able to discuss them with my daughter, but I worry about the girls who have not had an adult to discuss them with.
8. They may not get worse but they do not get better.
9. I think the main reason for their popularity is simply a matter of being in the right place at the right time – it filled a void left by HP.
10. I know several women – who picked the books up with an open mind – and came to the same conclusion – they are badly written.
What Delma said.
I agree wholeheartedly with you, Delma, with maybe even a few additions. First of all, the notion that Bella and Edward fall in “love” right away, after just seeing each other once (and Edward smelling Bella, which sounds comical) – well, that isn’t love, folks; that’s another four-letter word beginning with “l”, and it’s one of the seven deadly sins. There is no basis for real love here, at least in the beginning.
Secondly, each of the three main characters has literally said (or even attempted to fulfill their wish) that they would rather die than be without their love interest. I guess this is where the comparisons with Romeo and Juliet come in over at HogPro. This is more distressing to me than R&J because it is set in the here and now, and makes it seem that this is the correct way to think – if the one you’re truly, madly, deeply in love with (at age 16 or 17, mind you) isn’t in love with you, why then, life is just not worth living.
In fact, during the second book, Bella is so distraught thinking that Edward has left her, that she exists only in a sort of vacuum for 4 or 5 months or so, indicated by blank pages with only the chapter number and the month on them. Again with the comical, actually, but it’s really frightening to think that a supposedly normal teenager would be that distraught over the breakup with a guy she only knew for 8 months or so.
As Delma says, I feel great concern for all the girls who’ve read this and who have not had the opportunity to discuss these books with an adult. Truthfully, I think these books were too much for my 15 year-old (although she certainly doesn’t think so) but since she’s right next to the 17 year-old in age order in our house, I let it go – but made her discuss each book with me. But, I won’t allow my 11 year-old daughter to read these books until she’s a senior in high school. I’m hoping by then that this fad will pass.
For the first three books, Edward is the more moral one, as he constantly resists Bella’s advances. But in the fourth book, Bella comes out as the more moral one, as she alone wants to keep her baby -in- utero even though all the vamps (except Rosalie) and the werewolves want her to abort. What do her parents think? Why, nothing, actually, because they don’t even know about the situation. I could go into a loooooonnnnggg post about Bella and her parents but I’ve rambled on long enough now.
I will add this – the more I think about the books (having read all four in October), the more I find to dislike. You do get caught up in the story, and initially I was just relieved that they didn’t consummate their relationship until after their marriage (in spite of Bella’s best efforts), but in the end, I’m just not a fan.
It’s really interesting hearing about the Twilight books from the perspective of mothers of teen-agers. Delma’s 7th point does underscore some concerns. Because I’m not sure either how many parents know what their kids are reading or take the time to read and discuss the books with them. The books reinforce the sentiment which is all too common amongst young girls: that your life is over if your boyfriend leaves you. Or that suicide is an appropriate response to rejection.
On a more positive note, I have made some progress in a related personal quest. My 8 year old is steeped in Potter and we watch the movies together, with a lot of discussion as you can imagine, since some of the subject matter is dark and complex. He has a close friend whose parents are very religious – fundamentalist, I’m thinking. They were very opposed to the Harry Potter books and movies and opposed to their son reading the books or viewing the movies. So of course we never let the kids watch the movies when he is at our house. Last October, in an attempt to introduce Harry Potter to the family in a non-threatening way, I lent the mother The Philosopher’s Stone. She took it reluctantly, but took it, acknowledging that she used to love to read fantasy fiction. She finished it quickly, and didn’t seem averse to borrowing the next one. She just returned Deathly Hallows last week. When I asked her what she’d liked about it, she said it was reading about Harry’s thoughts and feelings, the kind of stuff “you don’t get in movies”. Yesterday I found out that they allowed their daughter to buy The Philosopher’s Stone for their son as a Christmas present.
I’ve read all the Twilight books & I would agree that Bella really isn’t a good role model for all the reasons previously stated. I won’t rehash all that. Bella’s whole life is consumed by Edward because she allows it to happen; I think that this could generate great conversations between parents & teenaged daughters because it’s not a good way to live a life. I also agree that Bella gets more & more annoying as the series continues; she totally t’s me off in the 3rd book by stringing Jacob along (I found that to be cruel). But I don’t believe Stephanie Myer meant for these characters to be role models, or wants to be compared with J.K. Rowling. I think she wrote a story with characters she was passionate about & ran with it. She was fortunate enough to be successful for many different pop culture reasons, including the HP void & all those female readers growing up. I read the Vampire Diaries by L.J. Smith when I was a teen & it was the same type of story, just a different author. As “they” say, everything old is new again (which explains why there’s been a reprinting of L.J. Smith’s original Vampire Diaries & the Secret Circle, which was about witches).
However, I would say that any books that generate interest & get people interesting in reading cannot possibly be 100% bad because it usually leads to more & more reading. This is a good thing. No one should let their kids read in a vacuum; be involved & use it to stimulate conversation about challenging topics. Or for parents to say, “if you like this, then why don’t you give [enter book name here]?” Because these books are not Shakespeare. They’re just good fun if you enjoy this sort of thing. I really did because I didn’t try to make it into something it’s not. It’s a soap opera for teen girls (or their older counterparts). No more, no less.
I would like to suggest some nuances and discussion points after reading Delma’s and Mrs. Weasley’s comments.
It’s not so much that Bella really cares that she is older than Edward, Bella is afraid of ageing physically when Edward doesn’t. There is a difference there. She has the dream image of herself as an 80-year-old biddy and Edward his everlasting 17-year-old self. Although she does press for her to be changed, this is mainly because of this image, the fact that because she believes she will change at some point, she doesn’t see any reason in waiting and because of the fact that she deems the circumstances too dangerous to be human.
Bella is not suicidal after Edward leaves, never has she tried to kill herself. The notion that 16- or 17-year-olds will come away with the idea that if your object of love isn’t in love with you, why then, life is just not worth living, must be read into the book. Edward does however say that if Bella were to die, there would be no point to his existence. Although that sentiment of course is debatable, I think coming from him it’s understandable.
It seems Delma has problems with things that happen to Bella rather than are her conscious choices. Bella doesn’t choose to go into a depression after Edward leaves. Bella doesn’t choose to love Jacob. She just realises that she is to some extent – albeit that Bella also immediately realises that her love for Jacob and her love for Edward do not compare in the least and she does not love Jacob as he love her or she does Edward. I wonder why this is, maybe you can say some more about it ?
I think some of the other issues that have been brought-up and the fact that I – and some of the book characters – see it differently have to do with personal views. The fact of the matter is that Bella is not a religious person and although Edward is, he believes his eternal soul is damned anyway, because he is a vampire. Whether or not you agree with the choices of some of the characters – e.g. not opposing pre-marital sex and abortion – is a personal matter and I think are not valid points to bring against a book. Just because you don’t agree with the subject matter, doesn’t make it a bad book.
I can’t stand it anymore. I’m going to buy the darned thing and read it, just so I can comment on it with credibility.
Red Rocker,
I bought it, too. But I bought it really, really cheap & in an ebook format. Don’t know when I’ll get around to reading it as I’ve just started Wuthering Heights. Have never read that before.
Victoria, I do agree with the ultimate choices the characters made with regard to morals – that is one of the good things about the books, I think. I have not said that these are bad books, although I wouldn’t say that they are great, either. They are okay. I agree with others who say the tone is rather whiny, the books could do with severe editing, etc. etc. But Stephenie Meyer is a captivating writer, and one has a compulsion to finish the story. True, I personally don’t like some of what goes on. But my criticism stems from the fact that I have 5 children, 3 of whom are teenagers, and that I know from experience that younger teens see things very differently from older teens. Parenthood does strange things to people – in my twenties, I wouldn’t have minded most of what’s in these books, but now that I have kids, I am responsible for bringing them up and teaching them what’s acceptable and what’s not. I said before (perhaps in the other Twilight thread) that my views are probably different from those of a lot of people. But for me, part of what makes a book good is how well its themes resonate with me.
You’re technically right that Bella doesn’t try to commit suicide; at least, she says she’s not suicidal. But once she discovers that doing “stupid and reckless things” brings Edward’s voice into her head, she does more and more stupid and reckless things in order to make his voice appear, until she ultimately jumps off the cliff into the swirling sea. Once there, she tries to fight because he tells her to, but then she realizes that if she stops fighting she will have his image in her mind at the time of her death, and that to her is a good thing, so she stops fighting. You’re correct when you say that I read into this that she feels life is not worth living without him at this point. Others may see it differently.
Oh, Red Rocker and revgeorge, sorry about that – but I think both of you have read plot summaries?
Don’t apologize, Mrs. W.. I have indeed read the plot summaries. But in my opinion, that doesn’t qualify me to be able to say whether Meyer is or is not a bad writer. It’s not that I don’t trust Travis’ opinion: I do. It’s just like a glass of wine. Unless you’ve tasted it, your opinion lacks conviction.
revgeorge, I am very pleased that you have started reading Wuthering Heights. The characters are definitely not nice, their morals are dubious, and their actions quite destructive, both of themselves and of each other. But what an incredible piece of writing. It is rightfully the standard to which all other stories of passionate, consuming and undying romantic love are held up to.
Oh, boy, I definitely need to stop following this topic discussion. Wuthering Heights was one of those books that I tried to read two or three times before I finally managed it. And hated the whole thing, characters, plot, everything. I never could figure out whether I thought the writing was good because I couldn’t get past the obsessive destructive “love”, which really wasn’t love anyway. I found nothing romantic about the characters or the story.
See, I told you. I need to go away for awhile and come back when the topics have moved away from the hopeless all-consuming love stories. Maybe my reaction to Wuthering Heights is the reason I can’t see Twilight as something that I would want to read.
Pat
Sorry, Pat, I didn’t mean to bring on such a visceral reaction!
I probably wouldn’t be reading Wuthering Heights right now except that my new Sony ereader had a free copy on it. So far, I’m only up to chapter IV.
Well, I actually had a conversation with a teenage girl about the Twilight books. She must be 12 or 13, whatever age they are in 7th grade any more.
At first step, as most teenagers are, she couldn’t articulate very well what specifically appealed to her about the books. She’s read the first three. Just that she loved them & thought the story good. So, I ran a few things by her based on the discussions we’ve had here. In no particular order here are some of her thoughts.
She didn’t think the writing all that bad. Take it for what you will. She has read the Harry Potter novels & liked them, too. When asked she thought some of the language & story elements a bit repetitive but not annoyingly so.
She didn’t think Bella too whiny, although she thought she might come off that way. Not too much thought on Edward that I could garner except what seemed to drive the story for her was the love between Bella & Edward.
She seems to be able to distinguish between things that might be part of a story but probably wouldn’t be okay in real life. Like a 107 year old man being interested in a 17 year old girl. Or constantly being together alone at night, in bed, cuddling, despite a commitment to wait till marriage.
Gotta go to a meeting; will try to finish this later.
Sorry, Pat, I didn’t mean to bring on such a visceral reaction!
revgeorge – LOL, don’t worry about it. I’ll get over it.
Be back later.
Pat
Pat, I can certainly understand your struggle with Wuthering Heights, even if I don’t share it. I think the difference might be that I tend to be drawn to works of a tragic nature. Bronte didn’t mean for any character in WH to be a role model of any kind, I don’t think. They’re a stark picture of human selfishness.
I think WH is a fantastic piece of writing, and agree with Red Rocker that it’s the standard for its genre. It’s also a brilliant piece of genre-blending. The supernatural-gothic elements don’t intrude, but lie hauntingly under the surface. There’s a very good essay on this by Cavaliero in The Supernatural and English Fiction.
Looking forward to your thoughts on WH, revgeorge.
Fired up and determined to get it over with, I headed out to the nearest supermarket which carries a small selection of best sellers. Much to my surprise, although I found one copy of Beedle sitting by itself in a corner, there was no evidence of Twilight. Will try other discount stores tomorrow. If that doesn’t work, may have to go to a bookstore.
Speaking of Beedle, does anyone know what’s happened to Korg? He’s been very quiet of late.
That’s an interesting observation you made, Travis, about the role of the supernatural in Wuthering Heights It’s one of those rare books where the main story is so strong, the supernatural, when it appears, takes a back seat to it. Thus it’s not Cathy’s ghost that compels attention, but Heathcliff’s yearning for her which transcends her death – and of course, eventually, his own.
Just one thing to add. I never got the impression that Bella or Edward were supposed to be role models, despite some good in their characters.
Bella herself knows that she is a very selfish person (until Breaking Dawn) and Edward is clearly self-centered.
The closest to role models presented as such are Carlise, Esme, Charlie, and Seth, the young werewolf.
Victoria,
For someone my age – to hear Bella freaking out at the prospect of turning 18 is just ridiculous. For her to rush into the prospect of turning into a Vampire – without a concern to her soul is frightening. If in this universe there had been no mention of the soul, I might not have cared. But, the author brought it up – she acknowledges that people have souls – so we as readers have a right to be concerned about Bella’s soul. Why isn’t Bella concerned about her soul? I was disappointed that SM did not bring this point to a close (unless I missed it). What is the state of Bella’s soul?
IMO, Bella is suicidal, as Mrs. Weasley points out, Bella is taking crazy risks and just does not care about her own life. My concern is that girls take this message and believe it is the correct way to react to a breakup.
I would say that my main problem with Bella’s attitude is that she blames herself for everything. More than I got tired of hearing how Edward was beautiful and Bella was clumsy and Alice was graceful and Rosalie was angry was hearing Bella say, “This is all my fault.” If a crazed murderer is after you – it is NOT your fault – it is the crazed murderers fault.
In our discussions about this book I have told my daughter that if a boy tells her that he is “bad news” to believe him and turn away. Do we want our young daughters attracted to “the bad guy”? If a boy says he will kill himself if she won’t let him kiss her – then let him. (Ok, maybe I should have said come to me – or go to his parents.)
Yes, I am against pre-marital sex and I am pro-life – and I think this books backs both of these views. But, I don’t think this book shows a female character that is worth emulating because she give up herself too completely, at too young an age, to a boy who tells her he is dangerous, because she is too much of a victim and mainly, because I do not think that this series is well written.
Another day gone without getting my hands on the elusive Twilight. All attempts to date futile. Will try again tomorrow.
BYW, has anyone here actually read Dracula? It’s worth picking up just for the style – a series of letters and diary entries. One of the protagonists – Mina Harker – later makes an appearance in Alan Moore’s The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which is an interesting pastiche of 19th century Gothic/supernatural and detective/adventure novels. In addition to Ms. Harker – actually Ms. Murray since her divorce following her involvement with the Count – we get Allan Quartermain, Captain Nemo, Mr. Hyde, the Invisible Man, Professor Moriarity, Fu Manchu, John Carter, and Mycroft Holmes. An interesting counterpoint to Bella, Ms. Harker, unlike her friend Lucy who falls for the Count hook, line and sinker.
I mean to post this with the above post.
Red Rocker,
I started the series with both of my kids at about that age. The most fun (for us all) was reading together and laughing at the twins and other funny bits. The best thing (for me!) was watching my children evolve as reading and into readers.
Bonnie,
I agree that SM did not mean for these characters to be role models – and I think that is fine for adult literature. But, in the YA genre – I don’t think that is a valid option! Am I wrong? Kids absorb so much from our culture as they struggle to find their way toward adulthood – what they read, see on TV, hear from their friends and parents is internalized and forms their values! Don’t we have a responsibility to provide good role models?
Delma I totally agree that Bella is not a very good role model for teen-agers (nor is Edward for centenarians, but that is another train of thought). But I’m not sure that I’d endorse a YA genre per se.
I think that the best books – no matter what the age of their intended target audience – speak to all age groups. Sure, their subject matter might be more restricted, but they have to be true to human nature. So they can not depict people idealistically or depict only good people or people fit to be role models. It’s been a while since I’ve been a teen-ager, and I don’t have any teen-agers yet, but from what I recall of my own reading, I just went into the library and picked up books which looked interesting. That included anything from Tom Corbett, Space Cadet to To Kill a Mockingbird to Nancy Drew to A Tale of Two Cities to the Swallows and Amazons books.
Now it’s hard to make the argument that Tom Corbett and Nancy Drew are fine literature, so we are definitely talking about two types or classes of writing. Call one Great Books (for lack of a better term) and call the other books which do not speak of universal truths, or the human condition, and limit themselves to entertaining without enlightening. Workaday books. Read and throw away books. Transient books. We don’t expect the authors of the first kind of books to limit themselves to characters who would make sound role models. In fact, some of the most profound books depict deeply flawed characters. Do we have different expectations of the throw away books? And does any author ever write a book expecting it will be throw away? Harlequin romances, sure. And some genre fiction: I’m sure Agatha Christie never thought her books reflected the deeper human condition. And are the rules different depending on the intended audience? If someone does with full intent write a throw away book for teen-agers, are they obliged to create only morally upstanding protagonists?
I’m just raising some questions. I don’t know the answers. But here are two more to think about: Did Meyer deliberately write for teen-agers? And would she agree that her protagonists are not good role models?
Red Rocker - just to shout out quickly before I go to work. Yes, I have read Stoker’s Dracula. I read it as an elective for English Lit class together with Shelley’s Frankenstein, Miller’s The Crucible and Hawthorne’s The Scarlett letter, most of which are now proudly on my shelf.
Naturally I do think that Stoker’s is the better book. Not the slightest competition, but fact of the matter is; Meyer to date has not read any gothic novels because they frighten her too much and she wrote Twilight because she wanted to hold on to the dream she had. She would not have published of it wasn’t for her sister.
Sure, writing style is writing style and the one in the book is just hers, like it or not. But I’m sure under these circumstances someone writes a very different book than with the research done and intent to publish.