Smart Talk on Harry Potter
My review of Twilight is up at The Rabbit Room, and it’s already taking a beating. Twilight fans may resume that beating either here or at The Rabbit Room.
Read Twilight: I Was Not Dazzled.
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Travis Prinzi on Harry Potter – Great Literature?
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I liked the comment about Bella’s need of a defibrillator.
Agree with everything you’ve said. But you didn’t tap into why the teeny-boppers and (possibly) hordes of otherwise mature women love this tale of the beautifully dangerous Edward and his consuming lust for the rather ordinary Bella.
Think Leonardo diCaprio in Titanic. Think Johnny Depp in Chocolat. Think the perfectly crafted Il Divo.
Think of being the object of the undying passion of a perfect man who would never harm you (although his baby, as we find out in the last book, makes a rough entry, making the series a good teaching tale for both pre-marital abstinence and post-marital birth control).
I found the review to be very informative & hilariously entertaining. Perhaps I resonate with your review of Twilight because I am not, and have never been, a preteen girl or even a teen girl. But I am a romantic at heart & do like romance, if not necessarily the Romance genre. But the romance of Twilight, from all I’ve heard, seems to be rather shallow & forced & also not interesting because the characters appear to be as interesting as a block of wood.
My wife voraciously reads all sorts of Paranormal Romance, from aliens to cyborgs to vampires to fairies to werewolves, and while I jokingly call it porn for women, the books she reads appear to differ from Twilight in two main ways. One, the characters actually have personalities &, two, they appear to have more skills & abilities than being able to trip & fall & have an irregular heartbeat or in the case of the man look absolutely perfect, perfect, perfect ad infinitum nauseam.
Anyway, I don’t want to be too hard on Twilight, especially without having read it, but as a general observation, for some people it may actually be a good read & for many people, especially young girls, it may speak to some emotional need or desire they have. But I can’t see it being a lasting book.
There, Travis, I’ll try to redirect some of the beating away from you onto me.
Aarrgh!! Just had a post disappear into the ether again.
Travis, thanks so much for the review. I’ve resisted reading Twilight and then I’ve felt guilty for not giving it a chance. You’ve just absolved me of that guilt. There are so many books out there, just waiting to be read – and many of them on my own book shelves and desk – that I just don’t want to waste my time reading something mindless.
Not that there is anything wrong with mindless once in a while, but I don’t think this is one I need to read. Once I found out, mainly from fans of the series, that it was more of a teen romance than anything else, I suspected that I was just past that age. I read some of that sort of thing when I was much younger, but it isn’t interesting to me anymore. Especially when the heroine is gasping and willing to give up everything for the guy. That’s not my view, nor is it something I want to read. I’m afraid I might break a lamp throwing the book across the room, over that theme.
Interestingly enough, I have a friend who is just a few years younger than I and she recently decided to read Twilight and liked it and read all the books, even though she said it was pretty much fluff. So I don’t get the appeal; she is fairly picky about what she reads most of the time.
Now, it’s not that I don’t ever read anything fluffy and mindless, but I just don’t read it often. I particularly enjoyed the Stephanie Plum books (or the first 8 or 9) by Janet Evanovitch. But even though the main character is enamored of the mysterious, sort of bad guy, she has a sense of humor and isn’t melodramatic about the whole thing. In fact, it’s the humor that kept me reading that many of the books. That and the Grandma, a minor character, who was just a hoot. And her oddball family, in general. And some of her other goofy friends. But it does fit in the category of mindless entertainment, disguised as a mystery/crime novel.
At Thanksgiving, my sister-in-law foisted off two of her romance novels on me when they were here, insisting that I give them a try. I said I would, but after I read the first page, I put both books in the closet and will donate them the first chance I get- she didn’t want them back. I just couldn’t make myself read any more of it.
I think Harry Potter has spoiled me in some ways. No matter what the book is, I now expect more than just a story. I want a deeper meaning, no matter what the genre or the intended age group. And there are so many books out there that have so much to offer. So I think I’ll quit feeling guilty and get back into the many wonderful books out there. As a matter of fact, I still need to finish Harry and Imagination (got sidetracked with Christmas and the weather) and the last book in the Dark Is Rising series. Insights into a series I love and interesting characters and story line in the second one.
Travis, I do admire your courage in reading the first Twilight book though. I just couldn’t make myself do it – and now you’ve saved me the trouble.
Pat
revgeorge, your comment is up! I’m going to try to check the spam catcher several times a day from now on. It’s gotten really hungry lately, and seems to be eating a lot more normal comments.
I agree – it’s not going to last beyond a quick fad.
Pat, glad I could free you of the guilt of not reading Twilight! My review, as far as I’m concerned, is now successful
Red Rocker, you’re right – I wanted to jump into that subject, but I didn’t want my first major post there to go on for too long.
I wasn’t dazzled either…by the ten pages I actually read.
Cautiously stepping in here … realizing coming from the estrogen side of things I may be outnumbered……
my $0.02
The appeal for me was that a popular story was presented for teens that made waiting for marriage romantic and appealing. Also a true gentleman was put forward as the hero who would willingly ‘lay down his life for his beloved.’ I see teens (and lonely, neglected wives and single women) finding themselves attracted to something far higher in the stories than romance. It is the hunger for a gentleman, a beloved, who respects his loved one’s soul over what he wants. Edward’s reasons for not ‘changing’ Bella center on that, even though he wants her to become a vampire for his own selfish reasons. How often do modern, teenage fiction stories present that? How often is the man protecting the woman’s soul?
And women are eating it up because that is what we are hungry for, and often are not receiving. Often we are constantly trying to retain our purity and our souls and finding men not prepared to be attracted to that, and therefore going elsewhere for their girlfriends and even their spouses (and then many wonder why the divorce rate is so high) Edward is the opposite, in a positive way, to the boys most teens are faced with.
Or, as the saying goes, “Smart men read ‘Twilight’ and take notes.”
Many girls are responding so positively because, for many, this is the first exposure to love that wants what is best for the other–leading them perhaps to an even greater Love Story .
It’s also important to note that the stories are through Bella’s often ridiculous, point of view, as Meyer is constantly reminding us through the series. She is flawed, selfish, and immature. She does finally grow up however first, slowly through Edward, and learning to appreciate her father, and then completely, through her child. In ‘Breaking Dawn’ for the first time, she is truly, completely unselfish. She gives her daughter the locket saying, ‘More than my own life.’ That is the climax of the answer to ‘what is true love?’
The fact that Bella and Edward’s marriage is fruitful is not something put down in the book –though at first some of the characters were too immature to understand that– but rather celebrated–a little bit of Theology of the Body going on here. And boy, as a woman, is that attractive!
So that’s why we like it!
Hmm. something wrong with the gravatars tonight. I’ll look into it if it doesn’t clear up.
Professor L, thanks for the insight! I can see where you’re coming from and there is merit in what you’re saying. My major problem with the stories is stylistic, and it’s enough for me to feel very much against reading further. While I do think the artistry is a bit rough, and I have a visceral reaction to Bella’s narrative, I get what you’re saying.
Thanks for your counterpoints!
I also appreciate your point of view!
I spend a lot of time with adolescents and they have been remarkably frank about how Twilight has opened them up to other possibilities in their choices and reading habits.
(And we thirty-somethings get a lot out of it too–Meyer is of our gender and generation, and speaks what a lot of us experience and feel)
The books are also great ‘gateway’ books. I’ve been having students read ‘Wuthering Heights’ and ‘Pride and Prejudice’ with the, “if you liked ‘Twilight’” tease. Heck, ‘Eclipse’ is practically an infomercial for Emily Bronte.
lol
That is easily the worst part of the books! (Though one can have a lot of fun making drinking games out of the amounts of times people ‘roll their eyes,’ are so terrified they have to ‘whisper’ or just ‘mouth’ the words.)*
Meyer’s writing does improve, and ‘The Host’ shows how she is maturing as an author. Will she ever be a great one? Probably not, but she does not aspire to be.
*I am completely against any form of drinking games, just using one to make a point. I do not wish anybody to end up dehydrated or with alcohol poisoning, and certainly not over ‘Twilight!’
Well, I still don’t think I’d like the books, but your comments, Professor L, are encouraging to know that there is something of worth in the series & that it can be used to lure people in, shall we say, to further reading. I know I haven’t read any of the Bronte’s yet, although I did see the Monty Python version of Wuthering Heights.
lol Rev! Monty Python is a little different!
Are we having a Mars and Venus moment?
I am not one to recommend the books to teens, but the reality is that they are already into it, so this is something in which I engage. I like John Granger’s comments on the phenomenon. There is something deep in all the silliness that Twilight is saying to females that’s making them attracted. It is not the same as your average soap opera, or 90210.
I would not recommend the books to many men either, or expect them to like it–they are really for a female audience .
(being very cautious here….)
A lot of the commentators have not read the books, or the full series, so the discussions have been a little like reading in different languages (not unlike trying to talk to a passionate anti-Harry Potter critic who has not read the books). I think this can add to the disconnect and some of the frustrations in the discussions I’ve been reading. I really would recommend reading the series if one is to engage in this topic.
If I were working with teens who were reading the books, or my daughters were ten years younger and reading them, then I would read them also. I think it is very useful when working with young people to read or watch or listen to what they like. Even if you don’t, it opens that communication door. That actually is one of the reasons I first picked up a Harry Potter book.
My biggest stumbling block to reading Twilight is that it’s about two things I really don’t like – vampires and teen romance. Both kinds of stories just hold no interest for me. And if I were looking for the ideal gentleman – and I don’t disagree that is something that girls and women are looking for – I have to look no further than Col. Brandon in Sense and Sensibility or Mr. Knightly in Emma. But putting aside the romantic literary choices, I think my very favorite gentleman in literature is Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird. And another one that I would like to meet in person is Diggory Ven in The Return of the Native.
Now, none of those might appeal to the teen set, but they are men of integrity who respect women (and every human being), who live by high and noble standards, and who do not compromise women any way or ask them to give up their connections to family and friends. It’s my understanding that Bella had to do that to be with Edward. Now, even though he resisted for a while, eventually that was what that decision cost her. Is that not correct? Asking someone to give up that part of themselves, even if they want to do it, is asking too much. In Bella’s case, it wouldn’t be a matter of her being able to ever turn back from that choice, and that just is something that would irritate me if I read the book.
The other thing that hasn’t come up in this discussion, is that Meyer is Mormon and some of what she seems to be writing has hints of her religious thinking. And to me, with my Presbyterian view point, the philosophy behind Twilight doesn’t work well. There’s just that whole thing of the woman having to give up all for the man. Doesn’t work for me – and I say that as a woman who has been married (happily) to the same man for 35 years. But neither of us had to turn our backs on our families or friends to make that work. I guess my biggest objection is that part of the message that her books give – that a girl has to choose between her love and what makes her an individual. I really think that is a bad message to send to young girls before they have a chance to really understand what adult relationships are all about.
And then there is that whole huge gap in their ages which I just find very creepy. No matter how handsome the vampire is, he’s still a vampire – a preditor. And he’s a preditor who is attracted to a very young girl. There’s a word for that as well. So the whole premise of the story just really bothers me – a lot.
Pat
Professor L, I forgot to say that I agree with you that jumping in to the discussion without reading the books is a big disconnect. And I’m guilty of that. I only added my comments to clarify why I won’t be reading the books. And I’m now bowing out of the conversation, because it’s not fair for me to give my opinion based on hearsay – even though much of it is from reading the synopsis and from comments of people who have read the series and liked it.
Pat
Pat, you have said some important things which I have wanted to say. Yes, there is a word for predators who are attracted to young girls. What you did not say was that even in our world some of them use their youthful appearance to get under the guard of their victim. And like you, I feel the need to bow out of the conversation because I have not read any of the books.
I must confess, however, that I have a bit of a dilemma. I am tempted to buy and read at least one of the books just so I can enter the lists as qualified combatant. But where would that stop? Would the opposition demand that one should read all four books before being able to speak? BTW, I already bought all four books for a relative for an X-Mas present. Perhaps I could borrow them after she’s read them? No. Every instinct recoils. Plus, Travis has already taken the plunge and said the writing is mediocre. His sacrifice would be in vain if I were to go ahead and read the books.
I will stay on the sidelines and take potshots at passing targets.
Red Rocker,
Where’s the fun in what you propose? It may be more noble but fun?
Anyway, I have a bid out on eBay for Twilight in hard copy. I see where you can get the ebooks for four of the books for very cheap prices. I’ll probably force myself to read the first book but really I think what it may come down to is that Twilight probably won’t appeal to very many guys.
Just to keep the discussion & the controversy going, here’s a question. And please note I’m am not saying that what I’m going to ask is a definitively truth, it’s just a question.
For young girls who read Twilight, what happens when in their real life relationships they find out that most men are not as perfect, ideal, & totally committed to her as Edward is to Bella? Does the ideal, perfect Edward, with practically no flaws lead to girls finding dissatisfaction in their real world interactions with men? Is a standard being set that no real man can live up to, let alone the teenage boys these girls would be dating? Last time I looked most teenage boys were not anywhere as flawless, perfect, & as utterly devoted to their woman as Edward seems to be to Bella.
Except the ones that turn out to be stalkers. I said I’d stay out of it, then I read the link (the funny one – and it was really funny), so I’m here again. The more I read the more I was reminded of the movie “Bed of Roses”. Anyone remember that one? My oldest daughter thought that was the best movie and wanted that kind of boyfriend, devoted, always there, even when she didn’t know she wanted him there. It came out in 1996 and on DVD in 1999 – I looked. Well, this was the movie she watched over and over when she was in college. I saw it a couple of times with her, and was dismayed that she hadn’t learned anything from the boyfriend she’d had earlier in high school was was very stalker-ish. Creepy, actually, and scary. (She has now, at age 30, admitted that the movie is really creepy because he’s a stalker.)
To me, that’s what this story sounds like, only it’s infused with Mormon messages. Having had a Mormon family as neighbors, who had daughters the ages of my girls, I did some research. And there were a lot of red flags that went up, but nothing that kept us from being friendly neighbors or our girls from being best friends. Then younger daughter dated a Mormon boy in high school, and I did more research, because now the focus was different than friendship. Daughter and I had long conversations, and she kept her eyes wide open and figured out for herself that it was a relationship that would never lead anywhere as she just couldn’t buy into their religion. Whew.
So anyway, if you know any of their teachings and what those phrases mean in Mormon code, Meyer has infused the story with it. I would guess that there isn’t more outrage over that because not many people really know much about what the Mormons teach, including some of the Mormons. (You have to be in a higher position to be in on all the deeper teachings. Just walking through the door won’t get you there.)
But people were up in arms over the witchcraft in HP because we all know about witchcraft. And people were not happy with The Golden Compass if they bothered to listen to Pullman talk about atheism – a lot didn’t. And some didn’t like Narnia because Lewis was obviously telling a Christian story, and we all know what that is. And then some were not happy with JKR for having so many Christian references in HP.
But the Mormons have slipped under the radar by not telling everything they believe to the world outside their doors, and by using the same phrases that every Christian church uses. It’s just that it doesn’t always mean the same, and the interpretations are often based on taking one verse completely out of context and ignoring others altogether.
I find that more disturbing than most other books out there. At lease with Pullman, which I’ve chosen not to read, I have heard that he is a good writer. Lewis and JKR were wonderful writers to read with engaging characters and story lines. But it bothers me that Meyer has this huge following for poorly written books (the opinion of nearly everyone I’ve heard from, even fans of the books) AND she’s pushing her religion on unsuspecting readers, young and old, just because they aren’t aware of the coded messages.
OK, now I’m really done. Rant over, and I’ll go away. My apologies to any who are Mormons, and I say that because I know a lot of Mormon families. They are wonderful, kind, considerate people, but I still think they need to read the Bible for themselves, and do some independent study away from their watchful elders. And I say that because I care about them.
Pat
I have been itching on the sidelines to jump into this discussion since Travis put his review up, ’cause I have some answers to give. But I really don’t have the time ! Maybe later on tonight or tomorrow night, if I sacrifice some more sleep. Else it’ll not be until in over a week from now…
The pain…..
Victoria, I’ve been wondering when you’d show up on this one! Looking forward to your counterpoints.
Thanks, [b]Travis[/b], that makes me feel welcome.
I’m sorry I really can’t respond with my views now, but what I will say is… if you’ve managed to get through Twilight, read the 20-page Midnight Sun sample chapter !
It’s the first chapter of the companion to Twilight, so the exact same book but than not seen from Bella’s but from Edward’s perspective. (And to be clear, I’m not referring to the the leak of half the book that surfaced a few months ago, but the sample chapter that Stephenie has had available on her site since before I first read Twilight, which is about a year and a half ago. It’s available for download on the official Stephenie Meyer website at http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/pdf/midnightsun_chapter1.pdf)
After I read Twilight for the first time, I wasn’t too impressed either. On the first read, the only thing that made the book interesting for me was the plagued Edward. I was only turned after reading the first chapter of Midnight Sun. I realised that some of the characters where more complex than I had first thought. Not only is the writing of Midnight Sun better than Twilight – less mediocre in writing and thought processes -, as said we also get to see more of the characters that actually make the series worthwhile – the plagued Edward and tragic hero Jasper.
Mind you, it says a lot to the book’s detriment, if one needs another book in the series to realise that the characters and the series as a whole actually have worth. And this fact is one of the flaws of Twilight that I wanted to discuss here. But if I hadn’t read Midnight Sun’s first chapter, I wouldn’t have continued reading either.
Okay, so I did sacrifice sleep to write my take on the discussion. And after doing so, I see that I differ from most readers of Twilight – whether of my gender and age or otherwise – in that I am not attracted to these books for the romance that others apparently find in it. I find the books far from romantic. Sure, the main character and voice swoons over her ‘perfect’ vampire boyfriend, but that is all 17-year-old romanticed circumstance anyway. To me that is fringe that I do not read consciously, because I know the way my own mind worked when I was seventeen. (And an uncomfortable reminder that was.) The story, for me, began to catch my attention, when I discovered the conflict in the story while reading Midnight Sun. The conflicts that are the minds of Edward and Jasper, and later on the conflict that is the third book Eclipse – the best in the series by a stone’s throw if you ask me.
I think that I also just tapped into one of the things that is the problem of Twilight. A book is not a good story until it has some convincing conflict, and if one is not able to put themselves past the musings of a seventeen year old girl, the amount of conflict that makes the Twilight series what it is, will not be enough to capture the attention.
Red Rocker - I think you strike a very good point in your first comment. Although Travis’ review was very entertaining to read and resonated with me on different levels, the Twilight series might lend itself as a platform to question why it appeals to so many teens and mature women.
You propose that it has to do with ‘being the object of the undying passion of a perfect man who would never harm you. I can only agree with you, if I assume that the people that are of that opinion must not have read the books very carefully. On the Rabbit Room, there was a comment by Caroline (#25) who said; ‘I can appreciate that [a few female friends who are enamored with these books] like the undying “love” and passion in the books, but with a hero like Edward, who is by turns cold and unfeeling, cruel and taciturn, how can that be appealing?’ And I feel absolutely the same way. Although Edward is described as physically perfect and overtly romanticed by Bella on approximately every single page, he is far from it. He is overprotective, belittling, arrogant, overbearing and vindictive. Far from the perfect boyfriend if you ask me.
Professor L - you say; I see teens (and lonely, neglected wives and single women) finding themselves attracted to something far higher in the stories than romance. (…) How often is the man protecting the woman’s soul? Although I think that you might be right as far as the lonely, neglected wives and single mature women are concerned, I think that teens definitely do not put as much meaning in Edward’s behaviour. I think the appeal fir them is the fact that Edward has eyes for none but Bella. And this ties into what Eeyore said, that Edward’s behaviour towards Bella is scary to the point where it’s almost criminal. This behaviour is one of the factors of Edward that makes him interesting to me, but at the same time I do also think that youth can confuse obsession for commitment and devotion.
Eeyore - you’ve brought up an interesting point with the questioning of the Mormon motifs in Twilight. I, however, know very little about Mormonism, but I would be delighted to hear more exploration on the subject if you know where I would find some.
Rev George - you ask; For young girls who read Twilight, what happens when in their real life relationships they find out that most men are not as perfect, ideal, & totally committed to her as Edward is to Bella? Does the ideal, perfect Edward, with practically no flaws lead to girls finding dissatisfaction in their real world interactions with men? Is a standard being set that no real man can live up to, let alone the teenage boys these girls would be dating? Last time I looked most teenage boys were not anywhere as flawless, perfect, & as utterly devoted to their woman as Edward seems to be to Bella.
Well, I will not repeat my opinion of whether Edward is flawless or not, but I think these books do not necessarily set a certain standard for anyone. I do think that girls might be strengthened in their unrealistic expectations of love and long-lasting relationships, but they will encounter the reality as being harsh with or without having read the books. I think the series is a work of fiction that is taken by its readers to romanticise the world as any other work can do. And I have also heard of instances where young boys have taken up Twilight in order to get some advice on how to approach girls after seeing them swoon over the books. This to me seems especially scary, seeing the opinion of Edward that I have.
As a side note, I’d love to be recommended some books by your wife. Especially the werewolf lit. Sounds like she and I share an interest !
I’m sure I’ve missed points and skipped some questions. To the mods, I bet I’ve made a mess of the typesetting again, just like in my previous post, so please correct any command mistakes and perhaps consider a preview option to the comments…?
Victoria, thanks for giving up sleep to comment! I’m actually going to head to sleep now, but I hope to be able to put some thoughts into writing tomorrow.
Victoria, thanks for your well-thought-out responses! I think what you describe is what I’m experiencing: I’m far too distracted by the narrative, which I think is poorly written. Though I do have to ask: Is it poorly written because Meyer is a bad writer, or because Bella is obnoxious? Does the writing mature as Bella matures? That’s an interesting line of inquiry for me.
Victoria, the following are links that I found over at Hogwarts Professor, but I thought they might be helpful here.
This one is written by a man who went to see the movie with his wife, a fan. While he doesn’t see any Mormon connections with the story, some of the commenters did, while another one thought the message was anything but Mormon. Still, interesting and fairly informative as they are from Mormon points of view, rather than those of us who think we know what we sort of do but don’t because it’s really hard to get the information if you aren’t Mormon.
http://mormoninsights.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-wife-made-me-see-twilight.html
John Granger says this next one is a “daddy” blogger, but it’s a mommy instead. Doesn’t matter. She explains some of the “code” included in the book and how it relates to Mormon doctrine. She’s not Mormon, but apparently studied it in some college classes. I found it very accurate with what I’ve learned in other places, but then she shoots herself in the foot at the end, IMO, by bringing up stuff about Harry Potter – totally not relevant to anything she had written about Twilight. So the comments on that blog are a challenge to read – many Mormons respond who are offended (no surprise) by what she had to say, and are very defensive. There are a few, though, that offer more information, but you really have to sift through the lot.
http://writetools.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/twilight-preaches-mormonism/
OK, this next one is from a former Mormon. She has a LOT of information and directly shows how Mormon doctrine plays out in Twilight, walking through the story with comments and pictures. However, be warned, she’s proving that she’s no longer a Mormon by some excessively colorful language, and to even get there, you have to click the button that says you are over 14 and it’s going to be adult content you are reading. I have to say, though, that it was funny to read, but I can see how someone who is Mormon would be horribly offended – personally, I found much of her language offensive because I don’t use it. I think that it’s much more effective in making a point to use language that a 5 year old could hear. Then the choice of words doesn’t muddy up the point.
http://stoney321.livejournal.com/317176.html
Now, the other thing is that this woman (the last one, stoney321) has written a considerable amount about Mormonism on that blog and others that she has. I spent most of the afternoon clicking on links (go to the user profile to find the Mormon links) and found it fascinating. But I’m not linking here as none of it had to do with Twilight.
The book that I read a long time ago (mid-80s) was called The God Makers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Makers
I guess it was a movie first, but I didn’t ever see that. It’s told by people who were high up in the Mormon church and then left. So, very slanted, but with further research that I did (which I don’t have any longer), it did match up and seemed accurate. And here’s one more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerald_and_Sandra_Tanner
They have done a lot to show the differences between Mormonism and Christianity but are no friends of Decker (The God Makers), saying that he distorted things too much. So, there’s a lot out there, and each has a link to something else to read. To me, it is something I want to understand, as I have a lot of Mormon acquaintances/friends.
Hope some of that helps. In the end, it really doesn’t matter, but I think it’s good to be able to recognize what one is reading as a way to better understand the motivation of the characters. Maybe that’s the reason some people weren’t happy with the last book. If they aren’t Mormons, then the choices of the characters wouldn’t resonate for them.
Pat
Need to correct something – The God Makers wasn’t told by people who had been Mormons, but about a law suit that was brought against the church. I think what I am remembering was that in the book there was a recounting of a couple who either had left the church or wanted to, and their story was what gave a lot of the details about how things were done and what was taught.
Pat
Travis: I thing a lot of the obnoxiousness does come from Bella. She is a brat pretty much until Breaking Dawn. Midnight Sun is far more mature, and has great potential—hence one of the reasons we were so mad when Meyer delayed it because of some punk who leaked it.
Rev: I don’t see any danger of girls getting disillusioned when they don’t find an Edward–anymore than they would when Mr. Darcy or Mr. Knightley doesn’t show up.
Victoria: most teens perhaps, but I have had two teenage girls pick up on the ’soul’ thing and talk with me about it (15 yr-olds), so out it came here.
Speaking of Mr. Knightley . . .
Incidently, Mr. Knightley was way older than Emma–he even goes on in the book about holding her in his arms as a baby. (Not quite the same as ‘older vampire,’ but still a little ‘out there)’
Travis - I completely agree with Professor L, I think the narrative style has more to do with Bella than Stephenie. Eclipse and Breaking Dawn are much better reads than Twilight and New Moon because there are a lot more characters involved and we get to hear their stories through their dialogue with Bella. Sure, some of the dialogue is coloured because we see it from Bella’s point of view, but there are stretches (whole chapters, even) where Bella is listening to other people telling their tales and so we escape from Bella’s limiting POV for a while.
Breaking Dawn is even divided into three separate books, of which the second is completely in Jacob’s perspective, as is Eclipse’s epilogue. These are really great examples of the narrative style completely changing from the rest of the book and to me are the best part of the series so far.
As Professor L said, the narrative is mostly because of Bella and Midnight Sun is far more mature and has great potential. That is also why just about the first thing I said was, if you didn’t like Twilight, read the Midnight Sun sample chapter.
Professor L - that’s good to hear. I’m sure that I generalise in my opinion as I have fairly limited contact with teenagers and can only judge from peer experience in my own youth.
Eeyore - thank you so much for the extensive list. I have read Travis’ new post and shall surely check out Hogwarts Professor on the topic. I do have a bible, koran and book of mormon on my shelf, but as you said, most things I just won’t pick up on trying to do the analysis myself, since I never hear the teaching but just read the book.
I’ve just spent the afternoon reading Travis’ review on Rabbit Room, and the ensuing comments both here and at HogPro. While I haven’t had time to pursue the Mormon links Pat pulled together (thank you for doing that, Pat!), I will definitely do so.
I have read the series. All. Four. Books. Not because I particularly wanted to, but because I have two teenaged daughters, 17 and 15, who were reading the books. Why? Because the movie was coming out, and they both think Robert Pattinson is GORGEOUS. Why? Because they loved him as Cedric Diggory. In spite of their being teenage girls, Twilight wasn’t even on their radar until the movie came out.
Travis, I have to agree with you on the writing. I don’t think it gets particularly better after the first book. I couldn’t stand reading from Jacob’s point of view – it seemed to drag on and on and on and on. I could only take so much running around as a wolf listening to his packmate’s thoughts. Victoria, I haven’t looked at Midnight Sun yet, but as soon as I can muster up the courage, I promise I will do so.
I can understand why these stories appeal to teen girls, and one does get caught up in the story (such as it is), but it just doesn’t have the appeal for me that HP and so many other books have. I’m amazed at Arabella’s conversion (over at HogPro) and I don’t dare get in the conversation over there, but I’m inclined to think she’s reading a lot more into the series than is actually there. As I believe Travis pointed out on Rabbit Room, JKR spend 7 years sketching out Harry’s world before she sat down to write. Meyer had a dream. Literally. And decided to write it down. I just don’t think the average person dreams in alchemy (okay, maybe John Granger does! But he’s way above average
).
My 17 year-old daughter liked the series, but sees lots of flaws (but then again, she’s very level-headed). Unlike my 15 year-old daughter, who is a typical teen and just gushes over Edward. We’ve had plenty of discussions, the three of us, as well as some of their friends, which have been quite good. Overall, there are certainly some positive themes in the book, but there is also plenty of stuff I didn’t like. And really, book 4 (whatever it’s called; I can never keep them straight) creeped me out. The best I can say about it is that, unintentionally or not, it had a very pro-life theme, which for me was a great thing. But when I got to the end of the book, I felt that there were so many unresolved issues that it was unsatisfying, to say the least.
And Professor L – just this morning my 17 year-old daughter was discussing Mr. Knightley being 16 years older than Emma and how creepy that was! (She had just finished re-reading the book for her Brit. Lit. class). I think the reason Edward’s geriatric age relative to Bella doesn’t bother her is because Edward still looks 17, even though he is a hundred and whatever.
Thanks, Mrs. W. on sharing your experiences, especially the perspectives of your two teens.
I had a thought. If Edward were to undergo a Dorian Gray like rapid aging process and suddenly physically show his 107 (?) years, how many readers would still find him a fascinating heart-throb? How many would look beyond his bent frame and wrinkled face, the liver spots and the wispy white hair, to see the passionate lover underneath? Not too many, I would guess. I think that most people would be grossed out.
BTW, I am not agist, and I do think that 107 year olds have just as much right to romantic love as anyone else. Just not with 17 year olds.
Hear, hear, Red Rocker.
Edward may have the cool, alabaster, marbled, perfect, chisheled body of a 17-year-old, but he ain’t 17.
Did you all ever see the spoof trailer? Quite hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dompotjTeIA
Pat, with regards to your concerns about Edward asking Bella to give up her life for him, he never did that at all. His preferences for a relationship with Bella were, in order:
1. She would reject him completely and want nothing to do with him.
2. Since she loved him, his preference was for her to remain human and die a natural death, never becoming a vampire.
3. It only defaulted to Bella becoming a vampire because her life and the lives of his family were threatened if she were not to become a vampire. Don’t want to get into details — it involves too many details and would be a spoiler.
Caveat: I am not a literary type. I am a math geek type who took only the required English Lit in college, so I am no great analyzer of literature. That said, I proceed, hoping that I don’t sound completely lame. But if any of you want to see the derivation of the Quadratic formula, there I certainly wouldn’t sound lame.
I am an adult parent with a teen daughter who read the books. I read them to see what it was all about. (Much the same reason I read HP, as many of you.) I don’t think it is particularly deep literature, but frankly most of what I read is probably not deep literature. Sometimes we just read a book for the story and not for depth. I read mysteries and best sellers that I am sure no one will have ever heard of in 50 years, but I like them.
My daughter likes Meyer’s writing style, I find it to be somewhat annoying, though not as much as Travis does. Probably the teen viewpoint thing, as well as that sometimes I feel like I have missed something with the conversational style that it is written in. (Hated the writing style of “DaVinci Code”, too, as well as the story.)
I do have to say that my reading preferences have changed a lot since completing DH 1.5 years ago. Many things I used to enjoy just don’t engage me anymore the way they used to. So I suppose depth is something that perhaps I will be looking for more in the future.
Mrs. Weasley, thanks for the link to the Twilight trailer spoof. Very funny!
“Hey, I’m immortal!”
Marian, thanks for the clarification on Edward not being the pushy one. Still, I don’t like the implication that it’s OK for the girl/woman to give up everything for the man, no matter who it is. I find that to be a very unhealthy view of a love relationship. I guess I should have been more clear. And don’t worry about spoilers, the more I read the discussion the more convinced I am that this is just a series that I don’t find interesting enough to spend the time reading.
There are so many books out there, and right now I have about five lying around the house in different rooms just waiting for me.
And Mrs. W, I would read them if my girls were teens still and reading them. After all, I read countless Baby Sitter Club books and Sweet Valley High ones when my now thirty year old was into that. I sometimes felt brain dead after some of those but I wanted to know just what she was getting out of the books and we couldn’t discuss them if I hadn’t read them. I was quite happy that the younger daughter had more interesting tastes in books even at a young age – Number the Stars and The Witch of Blackbird Pond were the first ones that gave me hope for some great discussions about books, and I wasn’t disappointed.
Pat
Pat, As I said, Edward did not want at all for Bella to have to change for him (first choice = rejection). It was a matter of life and death, and he certainly could not change back to human. And her becoming a vampire was not something I liked either as the story ensued, because of the “eternal” nature of that decision, a decision being made by a very young person. I did not like it at all. However, I would say that one thing Meyer did was to handle Bella’s change in such a way that it was much more acceptable than I expected it to be, partially, I think, because it was Bella’s choice and not a “violation” as other changes had been. Frankly, I read the last book hoping that somehow the change would not have to happen. But it did, and in what I thought was an acceptable way.
Mrs. Weasley wrote, “Hey I’m immortal.”
Yeah, that was a great line in that trailer. I thought about it & was thinking we can condemn Twilight on the grounds that it lures young men into vampirism in the hopes of picking up women.
Pat, I’d certainly give them a miss with no regrets, if I were you. Read them if you want to see what all the hype is about, but that’s about it.
And – my 17 yo daughter says that The Witch of Blackbird Pond is one of her all time favorite books. My 15 yo daughter would say Twilight
. The difference there is maturity level, pure and simple. My 15 yo daughter actually loves Blackbird Pond and all the Elizabeth George Speare books (I think Calico Captive is her favorite; she’s read it umpteen times). But, she is not yet mature enough to see beyond the “Edward is gorgeous and perfect and wonderful and he loves me me me and only me!” stuff. This is a big concern I have about the books – that girls are reading them too young. I cringe when I hear that middle-school girls are reading these – sorry, that’s just way too young to process what goes on in these books. And the fact that probably most of these girls are reading these books without a parent discussing them with them – yuck.
Of course, I will grant you that my sense of propriety is perhaps stricter than that of most people. After all, my kids think I’m raising them Amish because we don’t have cable
.
P.S. Elizabeth George Speare is a favorite from when I was a teen and still is. And I agree that kids are reading Twilight too young. They also read Harry Potter too young as well. How well does a 6-year old process the events and horror in HP?
Oh, dear, I guess my first submission didn’t get through, thus the P.S. not making sense. Here goes again.
Mrs. Weasley, you said: “I’m amazed at Arabella’s conversion (over at HogPro) and I don’t dare get in the conversation over there, but I’m inclined to think she’s reading a lot more into the series than is actually there.”
I’d like to address this. First, I had some reverses over at HogPro upon my second re-read of Twilight, once I got over the lurid prose, limited writing and annoyingly flat Bella. I began to see merit in the book, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s great or would recommend it (there’s much better teen lit out there). So I haven’t been “converted.” I’m not reading more into what’s there; there’s not a whole lot of “there” there. I just dug deeper and found more than was at first apparent. I don’t intend to read the sequels.
I find the much, much better version of this book is Midnight Sun; you can read several chapters at Meyer’s website. This is the book Twilight should have been. Meyer provides a needed course-correction in deglamorizing the vampires and Edward. Edward’s internal struggle with his admittedly evil desires is quite moving and compelling, and the story is much more rounded and better-written. Also Edward’s behavior (some of the “creep factor” issues complained about) is explained in a logical way (I have fuller comments on MS over at HogPro.)
I remember devouring the romantic, silly, gothic thrillers (sanitized precursors to bodice-rippers) as a teen in the ’60s. I can’t say they led me to unrealistic expectations about boys and life.
If I had a teen daughter who was intent on reading Twilight and sequels, I wouldn’t disallow it (depending on her age), but would read the books to have important discussions about them. Frankly, though, I think these nine-day-wonders are a momentary “crush” book and won’t have a long shelf-life. But there is good amongst the not-so-good in Twilight, and I can’t deny I see that. To me, Twilght’s main appeal is its unironic premodern/postmodern romance in a time when teens don’t treat each other very well romantically and otherwise.
I hope you do participate at HogPro, a most enjoyable and kind community willing to engage all points of view.
Sincerely,
Arabella
Oops, I meant un-ironic pre-modern/pre-postmodern romance.
Well, I finally finished reading Twilight today. And it wasn’t as bad as I thought. I didn’t gouge out my eyes or experience gut wrenching pain. My sanity still seems to be intact. So it’s got that going for it.
But I still have to agree with most of what Travis wrote in his review at The Rabbit Room. The characters were mildly compelling but not all that much so. The writing was so-so. I’ve seen fan fiction that was better written, had a more compelling & suspenseful storyline, and made you want more. I don’t really find that in Twilight. Perhaps personal preference but I really don’t feel compelled to run out & read the rest of the series although I do have them in ebook form.
Contrast that to HP. When I got done reading HPSS, I wanted more. I wanted to find out what came next and more about the characters. I wasted no time in getting all the books out to that point, up through HBP, & reading them in rapid fire succession. And then rereading them numerous times even up to this day.
I don’t feel any of that with Twilight. Not even with the hope that the writing or story or characters might get better, as several people have noted does happen. Again, while the story was okay, I did feel mostly relief here just a bit ago when I finished it. Relief that I could move on to something else. Sorry, Twilight fans.
Well, RevGeorege, at least you can say you actually read the thing. Now several weeks away, I see the loooong Twilight as a poorly-written, mediocre, but interesting blip on my “readar screen.” Debating it was more fun than the book, (she “smirked”). However, I still feel Midnight Sun (Edward’s perspective) was way more interesting, and you might want to look at that, at least the first couple chapters. Who knew?
I’ not interested in the sequels either. We know how it’s going to come out; how it gets there–to me, eh. Whereas with HP and LotR, you want to reread them as soon as you’ve finished and you get caught up all over again; very difficult to unstick yourself from those worlds.
I’m glad you didn’t gouge your eyeballs out. There are too many great books to read!
Thanks, Arabella! Yes, I second your thoughts on the matter. I thought about looking up Midnight Sun but just don’t really see the need right now. And debating the book certainly was more fun than reading it.
The fact that we know what’s in all the Twilight books & know the ending pretty much doesn’t deter me, because like you said, with HP, LOTR, Narnia, & several other series, even though I’ve read the books dozens of times, I still get caught up in them over & over again. Right now, I’m listening to an audiobook of Fellowship of the Ring & all the tingly, numinous moments I get when reading the book are also coming across in the audiobook. And while I don’t have as many of those types of moments reading HP, I’m still caught up in the story & the characters.
None of that with Twilight. In fact, about the only character I was interested in & wanted to find out more about was Laurent, the one vampire traveling along with James & Victoria. And he’s pretty much a minor character & remains that way!