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	<title>Comments on: Rorschach: Watchmen&#8217;s Abyss</title>
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		<title>By: Heroes and Villains — The Hog's Head</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-422278</link>
		<dc:creator>Heroes and Villains — The Hog's Head</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 03:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-422278</guid>
		<description>[...] mentioned the American monomythic superhero, before.  Think John Wayne, or perhaps John McClaine, from Die Hard.  I think that idea is still at [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] mentioned the American monomythic superhero, before.  Think John Wayne, or perhaps John McClaine, from Die Hard.  I think that idea is still at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: revgeorge</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-420423</link>
		<dc:creator>revgeorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-420423</guid>
		<description>I may have missed it because I haven&#039;t followed the Watchmen posts as much as I normally would, seeing as I haven&#039;t read the book yet, but I find it somewhat interesting that Rorschach is sort of a homage to The Question.  I used to read the mid-80&#039;s Question but not all that closely, just enough for some general impressions.  I always preferred The Blue Beetle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may have missed it because I haven&#8217;t followed the Watchmen posts as much as I normally would, seeing as I haven&#8217;t read the book yet, but I find it somewhat interesting that Rorschach is sort of a homage to The Question.  I used to read the mid-80&#8217;s Question but not all that closely, just enough for some general impressions.  I always preferred The Blue Beetle.</p>
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		<title>By: John Harold</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-420418</link>
		<dc:creator>John Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-420418</guid>
		<description>Great piece, well done.  Just find it so sad that he dies.  Wish he was brought back somehow, anyhow, but its been 20+ years, maybe all the cameos he makes in other comics kind of point to him being brought back maybe in the furture after his journal is published?  Who knows but still sad...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great piece, well done.  Just find it so sad that he dies.  Wish he was brought back somehow, anyhow, but its been 20+ years, maybe all the cameos he makes in other comics kind of point to him being brought back maybe in the furture after his journal is published?  Who knows but still sad&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes &#171; Hic Sunt Dracones</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-417833</link>
		<dc:creator>Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes &#171; Hic Sunt Dracones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 15:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-417833</guid>
		<description>[...] I finally concurred that the most defining moment in Watchmen graphic novel is at Chapter VI - The Abyss Gazes [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I finally concurred that the most defining moment in Watchmen graphic novel is at Chapter VI &#8211; The Abyss Gazes [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Red Rocker</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-417731</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Rocker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 06:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-417731</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t agree with the reading that the novel critiques the idea that any form of justice is (ontologically - by its nature?) superior.

Rorschach is flawed yes, as  is his idea of justice. But in this case, doesn&#039;t his idea of justice correspond to Moore&#039;s - and the reader&#039;s? Because otherwise why the sense of helpless horror that greets Veidt&#039;s solution?

This is how I read the story. Human beings are flawed and hence destructive of each other. The solutions they find are equally flawed. There are no exceptions. And there are no heroes. The best we can find is an antihero, and he&#039;s as flawed as the worst of us. 

To me this is not a condemnation of justice but of men&#039;s ability to deliver it.

Note that I speak of men. The novel&#039;s few female protagonists are defined entirely in terms of their relationship to men. Who would have thought that Moore and Meyer could be so close in their perspectives?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t agree with the reading that the novel critiques the idea that any form of justice is (ontologically &#8211; by its nature?) superior.</p>
<p>Rorschach is flawed yes, as  is his idea of justice. But in this case, doesn&#8217;t his idea of justice correspond to Moore&#8217;s &#8211; and the reader&#8217;s? Because otherwise why the sense of helpless horror that greets Veidt&#8217;s solution?</p>
<p>This is how I read the story. Human beings are flawed and hence destructive of each other. The solutions they find are equally flawed. There are no exceptions. And there are no heroes. The best we can find is an antihero, and he&#8217;s as flawed as the worst of us. </p>
<p>To me this is not a condemnation of justice but of men&#8217;s ability to deliver it.</p>
<p>Note that I speak of men. The novel&#8217;s few female protagonists are defined entirely in terms of their relationship to men. Who would have thought that Moore and Meyer could be so close in their perspectives?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave the Longwinded</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-417724</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave the Longwinded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 05:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-417724</guid>
		<description>I think the novel ultimately questions the issue of &quot;justice&quot; all together.  I read it as a critique of the idea that any form of justice is inherently and ontologically superior.  Moore, it would seem to me, would agree that Veidt&#039;s solution is problematic, but for all the same reasons Rorschach&#039;s is.  

Here&#039;s the deal:  Would Rorschach find Veidt&#039;s actions equally as evil if they were unleashed on a city full of innocent Soviet civilians?  Granted, this might be mostly speculation on my part, but I think enough of Rorschach&#039;s ideological motives are laid bare to assume that he wouldn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the novel ultimately questions the issue of &#8220;justice&#8221; all together.  I read it as a critique of the idea that any form of justice is inherently and ontologically superior.  Moore, it would seem to me, would agree that Veidt&#8217;s solution is problematic, but for all the same reasons Rorschach&#8217;s is.  </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the deal:  Would Rorschach find Veidt&#8217;s actions equally as evil if they were unleashed on a city full of innocent Soviet civilians?  Granted, this might be mostly speculation on my part, but I think enough of Rorschach&#8217;s ideological motives are laid bare to assume that he wouldn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Rocker</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-417684</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Rocker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-417684</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see justice as being on the same plane as personal and historical interests. Obviously Rorshach&#039;s sense of justice is ideologically diven, and biased, and leads him to act in very unjust ways (as per your example with the broken finger). But in the matter of Veidt&#039;s final solution, doesn&#039;t Moore agree that the solution is an unjust one? Doesn&#039;t he agree with Rorshach in this?

Or does he assume Ostermann&#039;s impersonal perspective, that yes, the end justifies the means, but also that it never really ends?

BTW, the reviews I&#039;ve seen are very positive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see justice as being on the same plane as personal and historical interests. Obviously Rorshach&#8217;s sense of justice is ideologically diven, and biased, and leads him to act in very unjust ways (as per your example with the broken finger). But in the matter of Veidt&#8217;s final solution, doesn&#8217;t Moore agree that the solution is an unjust one? Doesn&#8217;t he agree with Rorshach in this?</p>
<p>Or does he assume Ostermann&#8217;s impersonal perspective, that yes, the end justifies the means, but also that it never really ends?</p>
<p>BTW, the reviews I&#8217;ve seen are very positive.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave the Longwinded</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-417623</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave the Longwinded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-417623</guid>
		<description>Sheesh...  you think I like the word &quot;paint&quot; in that last comment?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheesh&#8230;  you think I like the word &#8220;paint&#8221; in that last comment?!</p>
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		<title>By: Dave the Longwinded</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-417622</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave the Longwinded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-417622</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Red&lt;/b&gt;, I don&#039;t think so.  It&#039;s important to remember that Moore paints him as committed to an ideology, one reflected in the hard right-wing &lt;i&gt;The New Frontiersman&lt;/i&gt;.  Rorschach uncovers that &lt;i&gt;a&lt;/i&gt; plot is afoot, but his suspicions of Veidt are driven more by his sense that the man is &quot;pampered and decadent&quot; and &quot;betraying even his own liberal affectations.&quot;  

Moore paints Rorschach as at least partially an ideologue whose motivations are deeply personal.  In the end, he&#039;s right about the plot/conspiracy, but Moore doesn&#039;t paint that as a defense of Rorschach&#039;s sense of justice.  Instead of a world of &quot;good&quot; and &quot;evil&quot;, &lt;i&gt;Watchmen&lt;/i&gt; explores a universe driven by both personal and historical interests, and none are inherently more justified than any other.  After all, once Veidt carries forward with his plan, the aftermath creates a more peaceful situation than the one that begins the novel.  Yet, even to the very last, Moore complicates this &quot;one world&quot;, hinting that it has its own problems bubbling under the surface.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Red</b>, I don&#8217;t think so.  It&#8217;s important to remember that Moore paints him as committed to an ideology, one reflected in the hard right-wing <i>The New Frontiersman</i>.  Rorschach uncovers that <i>a</i> plot is afoot, but his suspicions of Veidt are driven more by his sense that the man is &#8220;pampered and decadent&#8221; and &#8220;betraying even his own liberal affectations.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Moore paints Rorschach as at least partially an ideologue whose motivations are deeply personal.  In the end, he&#8217;s right about the plot/conspiracy, but Moore doesn&#8217;t paint that as a defense of Rorschach&#8217;s sense of justice.  Instead of a world of &#8220;good&#8221; and &#8220;evil&#8221;, <i>Watchmen</i> explores a universe driven by both personal and historical interests, and none are inherently more justified than any other.  After all, once Veidt carries forward with his plan, the aftermath creates a more peaceful situation than the one that begins the novel.  Yet, even to the very last, Moore complicates this &#8220;one world&#8221;, hinting that it has its own problems bubbling under the surface.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Rocker</title>
		<link>http://thehogshead.org/rorschach-watchmens-abyss-1781/comment-page-1/#comment-417533</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Rocker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 03:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehogshead.org/?p=1781#comment-417533</guid>
		<description>But isn&#039;t Rorschach in the right? Isn&#039;t his sense of right and wrong accurate, at the end? 

We know where the various characters fall on that decision. But doesn&#039;t Moore agree with Rorschach?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But isn&#8217;t Rorschach in the right? Isn&#8217;t his sense of right and wrong accurate, at the end? </p>
<p>We know where the various characters fall on that decision. But doesn&#8217;t Moore agree with Rorschach?</p>
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