I think I’ve decided it was a Dark Mark on Draco’s left forearm. That question is raised again in Chapter 7 of Half-Blood Prince, and it struck me that putting the Dark Mark on Draco’s arm would be a win-win situation for Voldemort. If Draco succeeds, he’s proven himself worthy. If not, as far as Voldemort believes, he’d be dead. The big risk, of course, would be someone’s seeing the mark; but then Snape takes that same risk. I think Harry was right to ask Mr. Weasley, “Does anyone really know what You-Know-Who would or wouldn’t do?”
What Harry Will Learn
And come to think of it, that question in and of itself is a foreshadowing of what’s to come, along two lines. The first is obvious: Harry’s correct that Voldemort has given Draco a job to do at Hogwarts. The second is this: Harry will spend the rest of this book learning what Voldemort would or wouldn’t do. Just two chapters ago, the trio was speculating on what Dumbledore would be teaching Harry in private lessons. And this question, asked by Harry in chapter 7 while challenging Mr. Weasley, is the answer. This means that our hero already has a fairly good intuition about the kinds of things Voldemort might do (probably coming both from the errors he made in Order and the soul-piece residing in Harry’s brain); and he’ll be learning about it all year. Recall that in Book 7, when Harry finally gets himself on track, Ron comments, “You really understand [Voldemort], don’t you?” This understanding is key to bringing out his downfall.
The majority of the rest of Chapter 7 is about Harry’s dual identity of the popular Mr. “Chosen One” and Friend of the Outcasts. He is Slughorn’s prize possession at the first Slug Club meeting, and he is stared at by all the students on the train (except Cho and most Slytherins). But he chooses and genuinely prefers the company of Neville, Luna, and the others who don’t quite fit in with the popular crowd.
Neville’s Parents, Abbreviated
There is one very awkward moment in this chapter that I’m surprised Rowling passes through with such few words. When Slughorn turns to Neville in that first Slug Club meeting, Rowling writes,
It was Neville’s turn next: This was a very uncomfortable ten minutes, for Neville’s parents, well-known Aurors, had been tortured into insanity by Bellatrix Lestrange and a couple of Death Eater cronies.
It seems that Slughorn really did bring up the subject of Neville’s parents, especially given the fact that he brought up Harry’s parents just a few moments later. Less than a year before, Neville had not wanted anyone to know about his parents. This certainly did make the moment uncomfortable, but we don’t really get much about it in the text. It surprises me a bit that a hugely emotional issue which Rowling spent so much time developing in Order during the visit to St. Mungo’s would be passed over so quickly, in just one sentence.
Prophecy and Voldemort’s Choice
Finally, there is more musing about the prophecy here, and we get our first hint that Rowling will be focusing on choice, as opposed to fate (or the prophecy’s inevitability). Pondering Neville, Harry begins to wonder what would have happened had Voldemort chosen Neville instead, since the prophecy could have just as easily been made about Neville. He wonders if Neville’s mother would have sacrificed herself, giving her son the blood-protection (my vote is, “yes,” by the way), and therefore wonders if there might never have been a “Chosen One” at all. In other words, though later in the book Harry will converse with Dumbledore and assume the prophecy is inevitable, he’s already playing in his own mind with this idea of choice and the potential that the prophecy would have gone unfulfilled.
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{ 32 comments… read them below or add one }
I’ve always assumed that Draco did show Borgin the Dark Mark, if only because no real alternative was ever mentioned in the text; you’d think the author would have written something about the “bite from Fenrir” idea (or what have you) if it was what she really intended.
BTW, there’s a typo in the title (“The Slub Club” for “The Slug Club”).
All excellent comments, Travis. With regard to Harry contemplating WHAT IF Voldemort had attacked Neville instead of Harry — I think that is one reason why Snape has bullied Neville so much over the years. He resents Neville (unreasonably) for not having been the one Voldemort pursued, because if Voldemort had gone after Neville instead of Harry, Lily would still be alive. Query whether anything else would have awakened Snape to the moral horror of what he was doing, though. It seems that Lily’s sacrifice saved Snape’s soul as well as Harry’s life.
The encounter on the train with Romilda Vane echoes Harry’s encounter on the train with Draco back in SS – both try to convince Harry that he is with the wrong sort of friends. This foreshadows the fact that both tamper with a comestible item and both such items end up poisoning Ron instead of their intended target.
The introductions scene at the Slug Club was kind of shocking, I thought. Gryffindors and Slytherins loathe each other on principle and can’t even give a curt nod when introduced to each other?! Isn’t this what James and Sirius did to Snape (loathing him on sight; bullying him just because he existed), which upset Harry just a few months earlier? Granted bullying is a lot worse than ignoring, but still. Contrast this with Draco’s curt nod to Harry et al on the platform in the Epilogue to DH. By then relations have thawed and a curt nod is allowd! Compare also with Slughorn’s admonition to Harry not to hold his having been head of Slytherin against him. Although Slughorn plays favorites with those who are well connected or who are beautiful, talented females, he genuinely seems to bear no ill will against students in other Houses.
Unlike Snape, who used Harry’s invisibility cloak to sneak into the shrieking shack and spy on Sirius, Lupin, Harry, et al in POA, Harry’s spying on Draco is inept and noticed. Both Snape and Harry end up taken by surprise and attacked, however.
I was thinking, Travis and revgeorge, that Malfoy’s comments about education kind of turn yours on their head! Malfoy, too, says, who cares how many OWLs or NEWTs anyone’s got? However, he’s not making an argument for self-study, he’s talking about the kind of service Voldemort’s received, the level of devotion he’s shown. He obviously has no idea what this really means, how hard it is to please Voldemort, especially if Voldemort is angry, and what sort of punishment is meted out if Voldemort isn’t satisfied.
Broken noses – Draco breaks Harry’s nose to avenge his father’s imprisonment; Aberforth breaks Dumbledore’s nose to avenge his sister’s death.
Lily Luna,
I’m not sure Malfoy’s comments on education turn mine & Travis’ on their head so much as go off in a different direction. Travis & I are still talking about people being educated or pursuing the things they are best qualified for & desire to do. Whereas Malfoy isn’t talking about education at all but servitude. Which as you note very well, he has no idea what he’s talking about because he doesn’t really know what such servitude entails.
Lily Luna, I thought your comment on Snape’s treatment of Neville to be very perceptive. I’d never thought of that before. I wonder if Snape tried to persuade Voldemort that Neville was the one who should be considered the chosen one of the prophecy?
I still wonder, as well, whether or not Snape was really redeemed. Just because he followed the correct actions & devoted his life to DD’s cause because of Lily’s memory, that doesn’t mean his inward disposition was changed. He could be doing the right thing for entirely selfish reasons. However, I prefer to think that he was redeemed.
revgeorge, perhaps I worded my comment on education inartfully (it was late and I was tired). All I meant was that both you and Draco criticize the overimportance placed on diplomas/exam results, but you are arguing for the ability of people to self-educate and are not deriding the importance of education, whereas Draco is saying education isn’t that important, servitude is. The irony is that the death eaters do educate themselves/each other in the Dark Arts since those are not taught at Hogwarts and they need to know how to do the spells to carry out their evil deeds. For example, Bellatrix says in OOTP she learned the Dark Arts from Voldemort. And we learn later in HBP that she teaches Draco occlumency [on first read I thought she was helping Draco hide his fear from Voldemort, but on reread I think it more likely she wanted Draco to hide his thoughts/plans from Snape, who I think she still doesn't really trust].
I’m probably getting ahead a chapter with this comment, but we need to bear in mind that a lot of times what we think are Snape’s motivations or intentions are only what Harry thinks they are, which as we know are usually wrong. So when Harry thinks Snape came to get him from the gate just so he could torment Harry on the way back to the castle, that doesn’t mean that’s really why Snape came to get him; in fact given Harry’s track record, it’s probably the opposite. It could be that he wants to talk to Harry but just doesn’t know how to have a positive interaction with him. He may not have expected Harry to blame him for Sirius’ death and have been planning to express his condolences. Or maybe he just came to needle Tonks; there’s almost a note of jealousy there on his part. Who knows. I’m sure he can sense Harry’s “waves of hatred” and that influences what he says.
On Snape’s redemption, I’ve always believed that since he has such a focused and undying love for Lily, that must have some good in him, because what was it that he loved about Lily? I don’t think he would put himself through so much torment and danger if it was only a physical attraction, nor even because she was really good at Potions. I think that Snape truly changed his ways because of the positivity and goodness that Lily, his love, exuded. Perhaps it’s selfish that he is only doing good because he loved Lily, but how could he love Lily without loving goodness?
In regards to education, I’ve been going back and forth on this. There are two questions I always ask myself: Would I be better at what I want to do in life if I started at a younger age? and Did I really know at age eleven (or even seventeen) exactly what I wanted to do as an adult? Would Harry be better at defending against the Dark Arts if he were trained, almost as a soldier, since childhood, or are there things in classes like Herbology and Care of Magical Creatures that he has learned that have become very useful as well? I may be a different case then someone like Harry, but as an aspiring creative writer, there are incredibly useful things I’ve learned in GenEds like Astronomy, Theatre and Psychology, more so even then some of my English classes. I guess my question is, is it better to have an overall knowledge of many things first, before you start to focus on what knowledge you yourself find important?
Mark Anthony,
I think there’s a distinction between obsession & love. Whether Snape was obsessed with Lily or whether he really did love her, albeit in a deficient way, is the question. I think it could be argued both ways. I prefer to think he loved Lily, especially based on Harry’s comments that this was so. Harry at times is very intuitive on these things.
You’re comments, too, on education are well taken. However, I’m not an advocate of entirely self-directed learning. But I do think the highly structured, processed, standardized, lowest common denominator, grinding schedule model of education, so well characterized by those great philosophers in Pink Floyd, is not really the best way to go.
I like the classical education model & I also think homeschooling is a good way to go. I’m also an advocate of getting government out of education. The idea that no one would ever learn anything & that parents would let children run around like savages without government schooling is a fallacy, in my opinion.
Getting onto something else regarding education, I can forgive Dumbledore for a lot of things, but letting Binns teach History of Magic is not one of them.
I have always strongly prefered our system of getting a broad general education before specializing over the French system of forcing children down a particular path early, which I think is very unfair and very hard to break free of later. Call me an Oakeshottian, but there is much more of value in education in and of itself than simply training for a career or job.
Harry uses some of his knowlege from CoMC (hippogriffs, thestrals) and Lee Jordan uses nifflers against Umbridge. Neville, Sprout et al uses dangerous plants against the DE’s in the Battle of Hogwarts. Harry uses charms (Wingardium Leviosa) to keep the brains from attacking him at the Dept of Mysteries in OOTP and uses Accio many times. Hermione, not very successfully, uses transfiguration to try to improve their food supply in DH and they use dittany for wound care. (One set up that we never see pay off in DH is Harry packing his potions kit and then never using it that we know of; I would have liked to see him make a blood replenishing potion or something.)
revgeorge, in answer to your question about Snape’s redemption: I guess it all depends on what you mean by redemption.
Case for: he no longer serves Voldemort, fights to defeat him; fight to protect Harry; says that the only deaths he watches are the ones he could not prevent; is horrified to discover DD has been raising Harry “like a pig to slaughter”, and continues to follow DD’s instructions even though it places him in extreme peril – and in fact costs him his life. He could accurately be described as having sacrificed his life to defeat evil. Also, he is capable of a selfless love: there is no advantage to him for loving Lily once she dies.
Case again: he dislikes Harry, a lot; bullies him and a lot of other students; is critical of \Hermione’s teeth and favors Slytherin students. Also, he doesn’t take good care of his hair, teeth, or underwear.
You do the math.
Red Rocker, I think you perhaps minimize the intense cruelty Snape shows to his students. In many cases he’s very brutal; even in cases where he doesn’t have to be. He revels in heaping abuse on them, especially Gryffindors.
I think perhaps he’s horrified to find out DD is raising Harry as a pig to slaughter is that one of Snape’s main motivations is to preserve Lily’s son. Not Harry. Lily’s son, with Lily’s eyes.
In addition, we could call his love selfless. But we could also call it obsessive or masochistic to himself. He does all this to punish himself for losing Lily, etc.
All I’m trying to say is that Snape’s character could be read as something other than the selfless, hero in hiding way that it’s to be taken now that the series is over. I still find Snape to be immensely complicated & not really a good person per se, even if he does give his life to stop Voldemort. However, he doesn’t really sacrifice himself, Voldemort kills him out of hand.
But I’m willing to give him slack because Harry finds it in himself to forgive Snape.
I don’t get the impression that Snape was that way as a student. He seems to have cultivated the nasty cruel side as a death eater, both to practice the dark arts and in reaction to the bullying he endured (the bullied becoming the bully). I can easily imagine that when he became a teacher Dumbledore told him to favor the Slytherins and to cultivate a rep as anti-Gryffindor so that when Voldemort one day returned, Snape could go back to him as a double agent. This would unfortunately entrench Snape’s bullying ways instead of eradicating them. Almost all of his bullying is verbal however. The closest he gets to anything physical are the detentions where Ron has to clean out the bedpans or Neville has to disembowel a barrel of horned toads or Harry has to separate good flobberworms from bad without protective gloves, and those aren’t much. The only other times he gets physical are when he throws Harry out of the Pensieve and when he whips Harry magically across the face after Harry calls him a coward, neither of which I would classify under bullying a student. So what do we make of the verbal abuse. There seems to be two types. One is taking points and giving detentions, which I wouldn’t classify as brutal, even when given for minor infractions. The other is the way he talks to Neville and Harry (special cases) and occassionally Ron, and his insulting Hermione. I don’t see any evidence of him bullying girls other than Hermione. He seems to dislike her for some reason, even on the first day before she was Harry’s friend. Perhaps he sees himself in her, or he doesn’t like that she interrupted his first confrontation with Harry, or as time goes on he resents that she’s become a favorite of the teachers, which he probably never was.
Revgeorge,
I agree with your argument that Snape could be seen as either loving or obsessive. Although I prefer to think he is loving (and Red Rocker gives some great arguments to that side), I can’t deny your counters. I think that what Harry decides in the end is kind of what we have to go with, because it was his adventure. That why I always say Dumbledore was good, because Harry was completely aware of all of Dumbledore’s less than honest deeds, but forgave him for it anyway.
On education, I agree with you that standardization is a fallacy because there is no standard, everyone is different, but I don’t think parents are completely the answer. I think a balance is required. Some of my best teachers were the ones that broke the rules, but I also had the great teachers that played by the book. I think Dumbledore did a good job of giving his students a balance of avant-garde teaching styles, and by the book people like McGonagall. As a history buff, Prof Binns did piss me off, though. I guess he wasn’t exactly necessary. Dumbledore probably never cared for history class.
Steve, thanks for catching that typo! I fixed it. I think you’re correct that since Rowling never offers an alternative explanation, the Dark Mark is the best one – especially since Harry turned out to be right about Draco.
Lily Luna, I think revgeorge is correct to say that Draco’s comments about what Voldemort cares about doesn’t do much to turn the criticism of standardized education found in the books on its head. Draco’s comments aren’t, after all, a criticism of standardized testing, but a simple way of saying, “Voldemort doesn’t care about what I learn in school; he cares about my loyalty to him.”
The rest of your comment – great stuff! Love the broken noses parallel, and the thoughts on Snape’s treatment of Neville is also spot on, I think!
revgeorge said, “I can forgive Dumbledore for a lot of things, but letting Binns teach History of Magic is not one of them.”
Well said!
Lily Luna, love that you referenced Oakeshott. He said, “A university is not a machine for achieving a particular purpose or producing a particular result; it is a manner of human activity.” This is precisely my criticism of standardized, government-produced education: it dehumanizes, and creates obedient citizens and competitors in a global economy. I agree entirely that the ideal education would be broader than just career training; I just don’t want a big government deciding what that looks like, nor do I want to take away the freedom of any given community to decide differently.
But I’m drifting too far into politics now and away from HP!
I’ll admit to having a pretty difficult time with Snape’s bullying; I find it quite cruel and nasty. Rowling says Dumbledore lets him stay on as teacher because Dumbledore knows the students need to learn to deal with Snape-like people in life. There’s some wisdom in that somewhere, but I’m more inclined to think Rowling was using that answer at the time to cover for the real reason Dumbledore kept Snape around.
I think that the real reasons why Snape was such a tormenting – and believable – bully, had to do with story requirements, partially misdirection, and partially because every boy’s story adventure requires a plausible villain. Snape was JKR’s red herring all the way until the end of Half Blood Prince – and even then some did not see that he was on Dumbledore’s side. As well, he provided a much more present and credible villain in Harry’s life than the almost cartoonish Voldemort.
In many ways, the chracter reminds me of Jessica Rabbit, who say: “I’m not evil. I’m just frawn that way.”
PS It’s early in the morning here, and I’m still not fully awake, which explains the awful spelling in the last post.
Travis, what you quoted from Oakeshott and the rest of your comments on education, including dislike of government interference, are my sentiments exactly.
I’m looking forward to reading and commenting on Snape Victorious, but it will have to wait for tonight as it’s my son’s birthday and the festival of the grandparents is imminent.
Travis in your last paragraph you mention prophecy and fate. I am not sure the JKR is dismissing fate as she seems to do with prophecy. They are two different things. In POA the heroes in the end do exactly what needed to be done to arrive at the outcome that we already saw happen. The stone throw, the howl the protronus…
So she is being ambiguous at best about fate.
One thing I really love about this chapter is that Harry is once again stuck with Neville and Luna, only this time, he’s very glad to be in their company. Of course, they’re interrupted by Romilda, not Cho, and there’s no stinksap involved. But it’s nice to see him leaping to their defense. And I love Luna’s comments. When she’s not talking about snorkacks and hummdingers, what she has to say is incredibly astute. This chapter is also really the first indication that Harry has a thing for Ginny; we see them being chummy before, but it isn’t until that twinge of annoyance that it becomes clear how much Harry enjoys her company in particular.
Not until this re-read of the HBP read-through – isn’t that irony for you; my thoughts will only collect as they need to be when I remove myself from the text to the second degree – had I realised what it is that had always bugged me about the idea that Neville could have been the Chosen One instead of Harry.
Travis, you say that
The placement of your agreement term says that you believe that Alice would have sacrificed herself and would have given Neville a blood protection similar to Harry’s. While I agree with you that Alice would have sacrificed herself and Voldemort will have turned on Neville after Frank and Alice had died, I do not believe Neville will have emerged as a Chosen One.
I believe that the crucial point that sets Lily apart from James, Alice and Frank is that Lily did not raise her hand against Voldemort, but turned herself into a shield for Harry. Thereby activating the blood protection magic for her son. While I think Alice also would have sacrificed her own life, it will been the same sort of sacrifice as James’s and Frank’s, but wholly unlike Lily’s.
Alice, like Frank, was an auror. Like James, they resisted Voldemort, however when James died by the hand of Voldemort, he did not give his wife or son any protection. Why ? Because, if James had had his wand in hand, he would have died fighting Voldemort. Without his wand he still died willing to fight.
Lily did not fight. She shielded. The one thing she did different from James was the fact that she did nothing to provoke her own death.
Alice, being an auror, would have fought Voldemort no matter what. Unlike Lily, Alice would have fought. Yes, to save her son, but at the same time also to save the world at large. By resisting Voldemort in battle and dying in the process, she would have forfeited her chance to transfer blood protection to her son and Neville would have never been the Chosen One.
This, however, becomes rather irrelevant when you realise that if Voldemort had gone after Neville first instead of Harry, Voldemort would most likely have not left it at that.
I think that we are lulled into another piece of misdirection by authoritative opinion when we believe Dumbledore when he says that Voldemort would have put more belief in the theory of Harry being the object of the prophecy rather than Neville. I myself am not so sure about that. While Voldemort may have found Harry to be the more likely object of the prophecy, I would not be surprise at all if Voldemort would have chosen for good measure to kill all boys that the prophecy could relate to; he just chose to pursue Harry first.
If we believe that Neville would never have been the Chosen One as well as the indifferent infanticide of Voldemort, however, the end result will have been the same. Voldemort may have killed the Longbottoms first, but he would have eventually encountered Lily and James a few victims later and Harry would most likely still have found himself to be the Chosen Conundrum.
As I missed two thirds of this read-through, this is the first time I’ve read this post and commentary.
Voldemort as Herod–never thought about it that way.
Lily didn’t have her wand either. We don’t know if she would have tried defensive/offensive against LV
I think Draco’s comment to education was a throwback to his first snobbish encounter with Harry at Madame Malkin’s–its not what you know, it’s your connections that really count. And, of course, Draco thought he was on the winning side.
Snape was a bitter, thoroughly nasty individual who took out his disappointments in life on his students. I’m sure the ones mentioned weren’t his first victims. He was the classic “bullied becomes the bully.” However, his love for Lily was true (and couldn’t all love be considered a bit obsessive?). Lily’s death gave Snape purpose, one that kept him on the side of good, even though he was not good. She was his beacon in the dark. And are we who are Christian also “not (inherently) good, but on the side of good,” focused on our beacon, our Lord, depending on him to keep us the best we can be?
Victoria, I agree that Lily’s sacrifice was different than Alice’s would have been, but my understanding is that the difference is that Snape had requested (or so I presume) that Voldemort not kill Lily. Voldemort seemed to be willing to grant Snape that request by giving her the option of stepping aside, which proved his undoing since she was now voluntarily sacrificing herself. Alice probably would not have been given that option.
Victoria, good point that Voldemort would have gone after all possible boys to which the prophecy might have applied. But I disagree on why Lily cd give Harry protection while James’ death did not. The key difference is that Lily had a choice whether to live or die, bc Vol gave her one, whereas James did not. She chose to die to shield him and that gave Harry the protection. Dd scorns Snape for having asked Vol to spare Lily but the irony is that that request is what saved Harry’s life bc otherwise Vol would have just AKed her to get her out of the way to start with without giving her any choice in the matter like he did to James.
Oops, Jeni, I guess we were typing at the same time.
No problem Lily.
I didn’t remember for sure whether the books explicitly said Snape requested that Lily be spared, or if we were left to imply it. I’m glad you added that!
I’d never thought of it in this depth before, but in light of Snape’s request and the fact that Alice could not have given the protection to Neville that Lily gave to Harry, the prophecy seems to actually have more power than simply being Voldemort’s choice between the boys. There were other events and factors that came into play. I agree that Voldemort probably would have gone after both boys anyway, thereby ensuring that the prophecy would be fulfilled. Now if he hadn’t gone after the boys at all…but that wouldn’t be in his character to let that go. Interesting thoughts…
It’s great that you give choice as another option as to why Lily would and Alice most likely would not have given her son protection, Jeni and Lily Luna. I do think however that it is a very difficult argument to make. Because didn’t they all have a choice in one way or the other ? Was James’s choice of standing rather than stepping aside less relevant than Lily’s ?
I know Alice, Frank and James wouldn’t have had repeated warnings and time, like Lily did and I see that you could argue that James acted more out of instinct than choice and that Lily responded by instinct and when confronted by Voldemort stood by her son as a choice, but even if Lily had had a wand, I think she wouldn’t have attacked Voldemort as James, Frank and Alice would have done. I see Lily as the ultimate pacifist.
On a side note, I don’t think the fact that Snape loved Lily mattered much to Voldemort. It is not in his character to spare Lily just because Snape loved her. To Voldemort, love is a weakness and I think he had rather snuffed that out of Snape. I think, even if Lily had stepped aside, Voldemort would have killed her afterward, no matter what Snape requested. I mean it would have been a clean-up for Voldemort, the man who killed his grandparents, not for revenge like he did his father, but because they were simply part of the package.
Also, I don’t think Voldemort would have realised that if he did kill Lily, Snape might turn against him. Voldemort, I think, was not aware of the acuteness of Snape’s feelings and the risk of mutiny. Because if that were so, I think Voldemort had not been so casual a killer and would have feared a wizarding uprising more than he did.
Jeni, when you say that the prophecy has more power than simply being Voldemort’s choice between boys and there were other events and factors that came into play, what do you mean ? The actual power of the prophecy is the fact that it makes individuals put value into something that is untrue unless you make it not so. The prophecy is only true because people believe in it.
Some of it depends on your view of Snape’s request. If Voldemort was in fact willing to spare Lily, Snape’s request led to Voldemort giving Lily the choice to step aside and be spared, which caused her sacrifice to have the huge power of protection that it did. So Snape’s request made the protection possible, which goes beyond the choice thing (none of them would have known the consequences of his request). If, as you wrote above, Snape’s request had nothing to do with it, Lily’s pacifism still played into it, which I doubt was done with the prophecy in mind; i.e., her sacrifice was not done with the prophecy in mind, and so some power was there regardless of Voldemort’s choice of boys. I’m not sure if I am making my thoughts clear or not, but there it is.
Snape did not tell Vol he loved Lily. He wd have known better than to do that. He told Vol he desired her, as Vol says in his final circle with Harry. I.e he wd have made it seem like he just wanted her for his sexual plaything as a reward for his loyalty. Doubtless other DEs have attacked other women for such purposes(thinking here of Mulciber) and Vol wd not have associated such a request with love or a threat to him.
There’s nothing to indicate Lily was a pacifist. She was a member of the Order who defied Voldemort three times. We know of her personality from Harry’s dip into Snape’s memories, where she charged James for bullying Snape (she had a temper), and Slughorn’s many mentions of her (her talent and verve). I believe the pointer is to red-haired Lily and Ginny being very similar, and we’ve seen Ginny’s fierceness in battle.
To base argument on Lily being a pacifist is to go outside canon. Wandless, she shielded her child and refused to step aside. Even that isn’t pacifistic.
In PoA and OotP we learn about Harry’s father. In HBP we learn about his mother. In Harry is the best qualities of both.
Jeni, if by ’some power was there’ you mean the opportunity of deliberated choice, I see your point, but I am not quite sure anyone besides Voldemort had much influence in the validity of the prophecy. At the time there were only three people that knew the contents of the prophecy and two were unable to do anything about it.
Lily Luna, that’s a very good point that I had forgotten about. That even strengthens the idea that Voldemort considered Lily to be of no particular importance.
Arabella Figg, I do not particularly see how my opinion on motives and events regarding Lily is more outside of canon than any other’s. More often than not, there is not enough canon to solidly support any argumentation on the subject, that’s why I think speculation is useful. Speculation lets angles be proposed that might not have been considered in the past.
In Snape’s memory of the events at the lake, I see nothing more than a girl standing up to the bullies of her friend. And the fact that Slughorn describes her as talented and vivacious says nothing about her eagerness to fight. I also think that you are right that Ginny is supposed to be a living reminder of Lily, but I would hesitate to want to compare Ginny and Lily personality-wise.
Just scanned this quickly, so someone else might’ve touched on this better than I’m about to, but I get the impression that the choice Lily made was everything. That’s how Rowling answered the question as to why her death, and not James’s, gave Harry protection: she had a choice.
A very interesting point, Jeni! Without the Snape factor, the choice would never have been presented to Alice, so the protective “power the Dark Lord knows not” wouldn’t have been created.
I hope you don’t see my comment as accusation. Sure, speculation does open angles for sometimes profitable thought. And it’s fun. But I simply find nothing to support Lily as a pacifist. I didn’t say anything about eagerness to fight, but fierceness–in battle, or on behalf of an embattled friend.
While I wouldn’t stake anything on it, I’d bet a knut Lily and Ginny are similar–both fun, clever, popular, and honey to the bees, er, boys. Just as Ron finds qualities of his mother in Hermione, I think Harry finds qualities of his in Ginny.